Saturday, August 19, 2017
Dialogues with the White Conservative: Rivers of American Blood
Doug TenNapel - Goodbye Darwin statues:
"...for it will intervene between man in a more civilised state, as we may hope, even than the Caucasian, and some ape as low as a baboon, instead of as now between the negro or Australian and the gorilla." ~Darwin, The Descent of Man
Tom Owens - Poke that hornets nest!
Michael McCleary - It was a a relative of Darwin who started the Eugenics movement.
Das Fowler - I missed the time that Darwin committed an act of treason and started a war to protect slavery but I'm not up on history so... cool.
Michael McCleary - He merely stole the theory of evolution from Mendel, turned it into an elitist diatribe which would help inspire Hitler
Das Fowler - I didn't say he was perfect, and i don't doubt that we will even have cause to remove much of the praise for him in due course, but let's not pretend that's anything like being responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Americans in support of enslaving millions of human beings because idea>people apparently .
Doug TenNapel - Darwin caused more death than the history of slavery. He was the Stalin-Mao think tank.
Mike S. Miller - Clearly you're not up on history if you think the Civil war was to protect slavery. lol
Phil Weingart - @Mike S. Miller… state sovereignty was the principle, but slavery was the proximate cause. If you don't know that, you need to read a bit more history.
Mike S. Miller - I know the propaganda I learned in school. But the truth is not that.
Muhammad Rasheed - @Mike... Considering the obscene amount of massive wealth generated by slavery's free labor economy -- that saturated every aspect of society from Wall Street to the cotton fields -- it's pretty naive to believe the lie that the American Civil War wasn't chiefly about the economic system of slavery.
In what other circumstance, especially in the context of western civilization, would anyone leave that kind of wealth on the table and willingly walk away from it without a fight? Britain freed their slaves without a war, but here was a very practical reason why that happened: They paid off all the slave owners what their slaves were worth. After Lincoln paid the Washington DC slave owners to free their slaves, the rest of the US slave owners outright refused Lincoln's offer to buy them out, and opted to fight for the potential long-term greater profits promised to them if they kept slavery going. The rivers of blood spilled during the deadliest war in American history was all about greed. Does this surprise you? Western Civilization's core evils were all about enslaving and exploiting people, and that's what it owes it's economic successes to that enabled it to dominate the world.
The efforts to soften the harsh brutality of Western history to make it look kinder than it really is -- even while it continues to enslave, subjugate and exploit while pretending it's not -- is the very reason why we don't progress, and why the ideology of White Supremacy continues to hang over society like a foul stench.
Mike S. Miller - Lincoln did not offer to buy out the slaves. He might have floated the idea, but that was already a full year into the war, and never fully considered or offered to the Confederacy.
I am not trying to 'soften' the most brutal war in American history. 1 out of 10 men in this country died in that war. It's reasons for happening are important not to be simplified into 'slavery', because it wasn't simply about 'slavery'. It was about an unfair balance of costs the southern states bore through tariffs that had benefitted the northern states inordinately. YES, that is monetary. And yes, most of the labor in the south was slave driven. So? The tariffs weren't there to free the slaves. lol. The tariffs simply punished the south for producing the raw materials the north used to build their businesses. The north, then, was just as reliant on slave labor as the south was. They just didn't have to get their hands dirty.
Slavery was a ubiquitous institution in every nation and people group on the planet up until the 18th century. Trying to claim that somehow American slavery was the most egregious slavery ever to exist on planet earth is just pure America-hating propagandistic BS.
I'll probably shock you with this little factoid of history, but did you know that only 6% of the African slave trade ever made land in the USA? 94% of every slave bought from Africa was shipped to South, Central America, and the Caribbean Islands. I never.. EVER hear about how bad the slaves had it down there. Nah, I'm sure they were all treated as princes and princesses. lol
Slavery in America was nothing special. It was slavery. Every one of our ancestors in every corner of the globe is guilty of taking part in that institution.
Go cry 'White Supremacy' somewhere else. We're not buying it here.
Muhammad Rasheed - @Mike... So you begin your lengthy rant by not only admitting you were completely unaware of the historical fact that Lincoln did indeed offer to buy off the slave owners to their stark refusal, but you actually proclaim that it never happened, as if magically the facts will be nullified by the power of your typing alone. Curious.
You could've stopped right there since the rest of your credibility was enthusiastically flushed down the loo by your own hand. None of your other empty partisan talking points were any better, even while oddly labeled with the term "factoid." Your efforts to white-wash and soften history in favor of cleaning up the foul image of the white conservative only works inside of your little box, sir. Outside in the real world it is revealed as the lie it was created to be.
America's "peculiar" version of slavery was the only one in human history in which a specific demographic was delegated as chattel along the lines of racial phenotype traits, and the attempts to justify this concept are directly responsible for racism as we know it. The unique cruelties that were inflicted upon its victims, combined with the contradiction of flourishing within the "home of the free," are what led to the ongoing repudiation of the concept of slavery as a whole, despite being practiced all over the world for untold ages. The way YOU practiced it became an unacceptable horror the world had never known before.
Those among you who lack integrity couldn't wait to rewrite history to show your forebears in a kinder light, while you continue to subjugate and exploit to keep that slave revenue gravy-train flowing still.
Lindsey Crawford - @Muhammad Rasheed... ask the Irish what they think of your summation.
Muhammad Rasheed - lol Lindsey, I already have. That train is NEVER late. :)
Black people suffer the most racism in Ireland, report finds
Two years of the ‘Irish slaves’ myth: racism, reductionism and the tradition of diminishing the transatlantic slave trade
The Irish and the Atlantic slave trade
[BOOK REVIEW] ‘The Green and the Gray’ by David T. Gleeson
Ireland's forgotten mixed-race child abuse victims
Lindsey Crawford - Oh.. please forgive me. I didn't realize you were a conspiracy theorist. I'll leave you to your narrow-focused conclusions in peace.
Muhammad Rasheed - Not one of those links belongs to a "conspiracy." They are all scholarly works of mainstream academic historians.
Try harder, please.
Lindsey Crawford - Sure they are. Also, you can't Sean-Connery me, I'm a Scot.
Muhammad Rasheed - Hm. That's the second time in this thread that a white person proclaimed that something wasn't so, as if magically the facts will be nullified by the power of your typing alone.
This must be the mystical "white privilege" power at work. Fascinating.
Lindsey Crawford - So it doesn't count if you do it?
Muhammad Rasheed - You're doing it again. :)
Muhammad Rasheed - Doubling down on foolishness doesn't make foolishness come true, Lindsey. Quit now.
Lindsey Crawford - Oh, I understand. Everything I do is white privilege because you say so.
Muhammad Rasheed - I said 'quit now.' You missed the lesson directly above.
Lindsey Crawford - So if I don't quit is that because I have white privilege or does this start to approach sexism? Should I rebuff your masculine demands to assert my feminine power here? I'm trying to understand the rules.
Muhammad Rasheed - I'll wait for Mike to return since you lack an argument. At least he pretended to frame his white supremacist nonsense in an interesting argument form.
You're just babbling in your commitment to your precious pet foolishness.
Muhammad Rasheed - (no offense, ma'am)
Lindsey Crawford - Mmhmm. Your pretend courtesy falls short. I'm not particularly insterested in a well-crafted debate. My object was to break up the monotony of your diatribes. I have no quarrel with other races, nor with other genders. My patience runs short with those who think they hold the power of heaven and earth in their ability to find internet articles backing up their ideas and collect the entirety of their vocabulary from the liberal agenda. You completely miss that on this side of slavery, much of us are on the same team. You and I are on the same team. I, unfortunately, am doing more to end slavery simply by not owning a person than you are by starting up skirmishes about nothing, pretending to be scholarly.
Lindsey Crawford - But I've got to go to work now. Mission accomplished.
Muhammad Rasheed - Lindsey Crawford wrote: "Mmhmm. Your pretend courtesy falls short."
Good. It was designed as sarcasm. You missed that lesson too, I fear. :(:(
Lindsey Crawford wrote: "I'm not particularly insterested in a well-crafted debate."
This much is clear, since you lack the skills to do so. awww... Way to rise to the occasion though, Scotsman.
Lindsey Crawford wrote: "My patience runs short with those who think they hold the power of heaven and earth in their ability to find internet articles backing up their ideas..."
That's nice. My patience runs thin with you white supremacists spewing foolishness from your proudly ignorant filth holes. I guess that makes us even.
Doug TenNapel - Would there have been a Civil War if there was no slavery? Absolutely not. It doesn't make the south lovers of racism and the north non-racist, it's just plainly clear it was about slavery.
Muhammad Rasheed - The North had more than their fair share of slave owners, while pretending they weren't. The largest slave owning family -- the DeWolfs -- were based in New England, and their plantations were in the Caribbean while they were lecturing the Southerners.
No one would give up all that money willingly.
Doug TenNapel - True. But the Civil War is a huge credit to American values. White people shot white family members in the face to end slavery. All I hear about is our racist past, nobody recognizes the blood spilled to end it. Because liberals demand we only cast the past as racist, they're the ones who usually say the civil war is not about slavery. They also deny that the abolitionist movement started in the church. I've read church writings on both sides of the slavery debate... the Christian Republicans won.
Muhammad Rasheed - The fact that all that blood was spilled on record for the deadliest war in US history based 100% on shear greed actually makes us look really bad as a nation to me, Doug. I have problems using that as a bragging point for American Values. That's pretty ugly, ESPECIALLY considering it was a Christian nation that did this. When the rich, young ruler asked the Christ what did he need to do in order to be saved, what was the second thing he was instructed to do? Either the Christian slave owners missed that lesson, or filling their wealth coffers was far more important to them than being saved in the sight of their Lord.
The Christian church fortunately did triumph in that battle, leading the charge all the way to the signing of the 1964 Civil Rights Act. It certainly makes me proud to be a believer (from anutha mutha. ;) )
Doug TenNapel - Greed is an evil that can have unforeseen consequences. It's also possible that without the sin of slavery, America couldn't have afforded to exist. The ends never justify the means and when we allow sin to stay among us it gets bloodier and bloodier to try to fix. America will always be scarred with some sort of racism, but I also see most people largely accepting people of other races. I often wish we didn't hate people of other religions or politics the way we don't hate other races.
Muhammad Rasheed - Seriously, the depicted scenario below is quite far-fetched, especially in light of sharecropping, how Reconstruction ended, and the former slave owners' ready exploitation of the 13th Amendment's "except for prisoners" loophole.