Friday, February 13, 2015
FANTASY MATCH: George Foreman vs Larry Holmes
Arthur Ballinger - Foreman by ko
Kyle Richard - Larry Holmes by beautiful boxing exhibition
Kev Dawson - I'd have to lean toward big George
Kwamé Burñey - Holmes
Neil Heffernan - holmes for sure, jab jab move!!!! drown him in deep water as the rounds go on!!!
Cam Beaton - Holmes. Best jab ever
Mirza Muhammad Arslan Azam - Holmes
Bertuccelli Jonathan - Holmes
Mel Turner - Larry Holmes via unanimous decision.
Bertuccelli Jonathan - Holmes had the chin, guts , jab and quick monster right hand behind it. He was not afraid , gutsy and smart
Brian Leonard Ham - Foreman ko
Lewis Bruthadarkness Lindsey Jr - Holmes that jab and technical skills would be hard for Foreman
Tulsiim Kiapalanexw - Larry had a good jab and worked off it well...Foreman couldnt go past 4rounds for a while there...Larry takes it!
Lee Wybrow - Larry Holmes wins by points or late stoppage
Tony Stewart - I actually asked big George this, he said Holmes by that jab would've beat him~
Daniel Kehinde Coker - Holmes on points .
Patrick Merkel - The same result as Holmes-Shavers
Mal Milne - Foreman in 3 or less
Muhammad Rasheed - Holmes takes it with classic boxing, for a possible stoppage in the late rounds.
Slaven Ajanovic - Stoppage? LOL! Holmes stop Foreman?? Are you nuts? Foreman went 10 rounds with both his eyes closed against Stewart, who hit harder than Holmes.
Muhammad Rasheed - What does that have to do with anything? Boxers perform differently against other boxers all the time. Look at Frazier vs Foreman compared to Ali vs Foreman.
Muhammad Rasheed - On paper, according to the skills they've demonstrated, I call it the way I analyzed it. I think you are nuts for responding that way. What's wrong with you?
Slaven Ajanovic - Foreman could take punishment as well as anyone else. Holmes would never dare to be so offensive against him that he would have to in order to stop him.
Muhammad Rasheed - I'm pretty sure I said "classic boxing," and not "offensive." Classic boxing is staying on your toes and using your defense, not slugging it out.
Slaven Ajanovic - What's wrong with me? This is the internet, lol. And 2015-thats whats wrong with me.
Muhammad Rasheed - Touché. lol
Slaven Ajanovic - And you think he could stop Big George that way? Ok...your opinion.
Muhammad Rasheed - Well, Internet or not, let's keep it civil. Sharing opinions on a fantasy fight that will never happen is supposed to be fun. Relax with that stuff.
Slaven Ajanovic - I agree. I was a bit rash...or is it brash? Same thing.
Muhammad Rasheed - Holmes is one of the all time great champion heavyweights. Foreman has been embarrassed by being taken into the later rounds by classic boxers before. That wouldn't be impossible. And it is possible he could be stopped from an accumulation of punishment combined with exhaustion, which is how he was stopped during the "Rumble in the Jungle" event. Logical analysis of past performances.
Slaven Ajanovic - I'm not hugging Foreman, but I don't like Holmes, especially after what he recently said about Wlad Klitschko. I always found him arrogant and annoying. That said, he was an excellent boxer, no doubt. Just not as good as he himself thought, lol. Ali would beat him.
Muhammad Rasheed - I'm aware of Holmes' history and how certain demographics among fight fans feel about him. I'm only referring to the skills he's demonstrated within the squared circle.
Slaven Ajanovic - OK, thats settled then.
Patrick Merkel - LOl all black people love Holmes? Since when
Patrick Merkel - Holmes was an unpopular champion who never understood life isn't fair.
Slaven Ajanovic - Yea, like when he lost the second time against Spinks he went berserk. YOU CAN KISS MY BLACK ASS! KISS WHERE THE SUN DON'T SHINE! Hahaha, what a nut.
Muhammad Rasheed - Patrick Merkel wrote: "LOl all black people love Holmes? Since when"
What do you mean?
Patrick Merkel - You said certain demographics of fight fans didn't like Holmes. I don't think most demographics of fans white and black cared much for Larry back then
Muhammad Rasheed - Slaven Ajanovic wrote: "Yea, like when he lost the second time against Spinks he went berserk."
I think Patrick is referring to the unfairness of being treated poorly because he became champion after a popular champion left.
Slaven Ajanovic - Only against Cooney did everyone white hate him, lol.
Muhammad Rasheed - Patrick Merkel wrote: "You said certain demographics of fight fans didn't like Holmes."
Does "demographic" only refer to 'race' now? I must've missed that memo. I did type "demographicS" plural. Or did I dream that part?
Patrick Merkel - @Muhammad Rasheed… that and the fact that Larry has never understood why Ali could say things and be loved for it and when Larry Holmes said the same he was vilified. LIFE ISN'T FAIR
Muhammad Rasheed - ^Both of those items are directly related.
Muhammad Rasheed - They treated him that way because he wasn't Ali, and it WASN’T fair. Plus Holmes didn't have the kind of personality that could handle the world stage; he took everything personally and became bitter for it.
Slaven Ajanovic - Yea, I think it only made him more unpopular that he just couldn't accept he would never be like Ali.
Bruce Winfield - Holmes would have to fight a perfect fight to avoid George for 15 rds , Foreman cut the ring down well and Larry was brave . George will catch up to Holmes drop him and finish the fight ! larry was not Ali and could not use his blueprint !
Slaven Ajanovic - Even Ali barely survived against Foreman.
Patrick Merkel - Holmes would have no trouble beating Foreman IMO. Holmes always beat sluggers - Tyson excepted
Slaven Ajanovic - Beating him? Maybe not. Stopping him? Definitely.
Patrick Merkel - @Muhammad Rasheed… that is the most perfect summation of Holmes I have seen written. You said it much better than I.
Muhammad Rasheed - Bruce Winfield wrote: "larry was not Ali and could not use his blueprint ! "
Holmes had his own version of "the blueprint" and used it to great effect. He was certainly a better skilled fighter than Foreman.
Slaven Ajanovic - Lets not forget Holmes got a gift against Witherspoon and Carl Williams and also had some trouble with the crude Berbick.
Patrick Merkel - Those weren't sluggers
Slaven Ajanovic - Berbick was.
Patrick Merkel - A lot of fighters had trouble with Berbick.
Patrick Merkel - He was big with an iron chin
Muhammad Rasheed - Slaven Ajanovic wrote: "Even Ali barely survived against Foreman."
Ali knew exactly what he was doing against Foreman and called it before the fight ("Experience will enable me to defeat George Foreman!") even though he led their camp to think he planned to dance all night. All Foreman had was his great strength and punching power; even Tyson fans know that is not enough to defeat a highly-skilled (and tough) opponent.
Bruce Winfield - Larry could fight , but he wasnt elusive enough to avoid George who if he got you hurt he finished you unlike Shavers and Snipes !
Slaven Ajanovic - What do you mean EVEN TYSON FANS? You calling Tyson fans stupid?
Muhammad Rasheed - Patrick Merkel wrote: "Holmes always beat sluggers - Tyson excepted"
Yes, I watched that fight the other night, and Holmes' age showed definitely. I would've loved to see them do that one when each was at their best.
Jerry Landry - Anyway Holmes beats big george
Muhammad Rasheed - Slaven Ajanovic wrote: "What do you mean EVEN TYSON FANS? You calling Tyson fans stupid?"
lol I'M a Tyson fan. It means that we recognize that, even though Tyson never lost his legendary punching power, he wasn't as good a fighter when he stopped using the actual skills taught him by Cuss & Rooney. In fact, he was garbage without them.
Bruce Winfield - Ali did plan to dance and move , but George cut the ring off and forced the fight to the ropes where Ali improvised and outlasted George , Holmes would not be capable of such a feat ! He did not possess the chin ofAli
Slaven Ajanovic - That was the truth...when Rooney went, Tyson's skills went with him.
Muhammad Rasheed - Bruce Winfield wrote: "Ali did plan to dance and move..."
No. The very first thing Ali did was step to him with an overhand right and tied him up. His whole strategy in those early rounds was to piss foreman off by staying in his face talking shit.
Slaven Ajanovic - Hey Muhammad, you aren't by any chance from Philadelphia? Since you know so much about boxing. ;)
Muhammad Rasheed - I'm from Detroit.
Slaven Ajanovic - Ah, Kronk city!
Slaven Ajanovic – [thumbs up]
Muhammad Rasheed - We've had a pretty decent champ or two...
Slaven Ajanovic - Yeah...and Hearns is one of my alltime favorites.
Slaven Ajanovic - MOTOR CITY COBRA...one of the best boxing nicknames ever.
John Brenni - Holmes . stays out of range of big George's bombs . outpoint or late round K.O.
Bruce Winfield - Before that fight my cousin the late "Bundini" Brown took me to Deer Lake Pa. where we watched Ali's early preparation for the fight prior to leaving for Africa , Ali clearly wanted that fight in the center of the ring , George was a master at cutting the ring off and forced the fight to the ropes where Ali did the unimaginable !
Muhammad Rasheed - Bruce Winfield wrote: "Ali clearly wanted that fight in the center of the ring"
Nooo... He wanted to fight the way he demonstrated during 'Rumble,' but he wanted the Foreman camp to think (and train) as if he planned to dance. So why would he show you otherwise?
Bruce Winfield - I am there with his cornerman at the time of the fight and had personally watched Ali train many times , the rope a dope was an improvisation on the spot by Ali , when he employed the strategy his corner went crazy screaming to move away from the ropes and were afraid he would get stopped , not the actions of a corner who planned to be on the ropes!
Muhammad Rasheed - @Bruce - Meanwhile, when the cameras weren't around and there was no audience, he trained in tying up and infighting.
Patrick Merkel - One bad thing about that Foreman fight for Ali was it made him actually believe he would beat Holmes in 1980.
Muhammad Rasheed - Well, his greedy, bloody-sucking entourage made him believe it.
Muhammad Rasheed - They were afraid their "Greatest ATM" would stop giving out the free handouts.
Patrick Merkel - I think he would have fired them all and fought Holmes anyway. But he had some bad hangers on for sure. ATM is right
Bruce Winfield - Ali always tied up fighters , he was the master of the clinch ! That was nothing new , however laying on the ropes allowing Foreman to punch himself out was totally improvised ! @Muhammad , I was part of a small circle of people who spent time at Ali's training camp in Deer Lake , no cameras and no audience . I also spent some years at Miami's 5th street gym training with Sidney Walker .
Patrick Merkel - only Pachecho had any convictions at all and quit in 1977
Muhammad Rasheed - Bruce Winfield wrote: "Ali always tied up fighters , he was the master of the clinch ! That was nothing new , however laying on the ropes allowing Foreman to punch himself out was totally improvised!"
Bruce, that doesn't describe how he performed during that fight at all; Ali was VERY aggressive, and was really beating up on Foreman during those 8 rounds. Repeating the "laying on the ropes allowing Foreman to punch himself out" legend only reveals you didn't analyze the fight. Frazier was the color commentator during ‘Rumble,’ and even he -- EARLY -- remarked that Ali was beating up Foreman in the clinches.
Muhammad Rasheed - It doesn't matter where you spent time and who you met if you are only going to regurgitate the starry-eyed myths of the lay fans.
Muhammad Rasheed - Patrick Merkel wrote: "I think he would have fired them all and fought Holmes anyway."
Nah, he was really tired of fighting by the end. He had to really hype himself up to fight in the post-Manilla days. Ali would've CHEERFULLY went on speaking tours to colleges again and lived an easier life on his celebrity. It was his entourage that convinced him to "Do it again, Champ!"
Bruce Winfield - I watched that fight on closed circuit at MSG , and I dont know what fight you watched or where were you whenthe fight happened , I can tell by your condescending remarks that now your arguement is deteriorating .......cut it out !
Muhammad Rasheed – MY argument is deteriorating? lol 99% of your argument is composed of celebrity name-dropping.
Get your boxing analysis game up.
Bruce Winfield - Name one celebrity , you clearly get upset when someone disagrees with you on a fight you only read about and experienced on you tube with a rear view window analysis !
Bruce Winfield - Were you even around in 1974 ?
Muhammad Rasheed - Bruce Winfield wrote: "Name one celebrity..."
Bruce Winfield wrote: "Before that fight my cousin the late "Bundini" Brown..."
celebrity - a famous or well-known person.
Muhammad Rasheed - Go to bed, Bruce, you're drunk.
And apparently old.
Bruce Winfield - He is my cousin and yes I am older than you . When a person resorts to insults it shows your immaturity and lack of a credible arguement
Muhammad Rasheed - lol No, it shows that I have very little interest in your "I name drop and I'm old" technique of boxing analysis. It lacks insight as well as demonstrates you are looking for some cheap form of 5th rate celebrity-by-association. I'm not interested. If you don't plan to contribute anything worthwhile, how about addressing someone else with that stuff instead of me? There's a lad.
Bruce Winfield - Cut it out , and stop being so emotional ! We just dont agree , you dont have to respond to my opinion !
Muhammad Rasheed - ^You see all of these exclamation marks you've peppered your post with? That's what 'emotion' looks like on the Internet.
Muhammad Rasheed At this point I think the problem you actually have with me -- since you were so kind as to reveal you actually hung out in the Ali camp -- was my expressed disdain for his leaching, blood-sucking entourage.
Stung, didn't it?
Bruce Winfield - Dude ,I am not an english teacher and your words convey emotion to me , not punctuation marks.....
Muhammad Rasheed - I just figured out where all the 'emotion' is REALLY coming from. Perhaps you should stop typing before you embarrass yourself further?
Bruce Winfield - I was never a part of his entourage , so no !
Muhammad Rasheed - Your cousin was.
Muhammad Rasheed - O_O
Bruce Winfield - I would have been honored to part of Ali's entourage !
Muhammad Rasheed - lol Of course you would've. "Do it again, Champ! My mortgage payment is due!"
Bruce Winfield - How do you know what went on in Ali's entourage ?Sounds like female "gossip" to me .
Muhammad Rasheed - "You're STILL the greatest, Champ! You'll be the first 70+ year old heavyweight champ in history!"
Bruce Winfield - How long have you been menustrating ?
Muhammad Rasheed - I win, Bruce. Go away now.
Bruce Winfield - That is your goal , to "win" ? Pathetic........
Youri Aramin Kemp - Holmes. George cant box...
Muhammad Rasheed - Bruce Winfield wrote: "That is your goal , to 'win?' Pathetic........ "
I'm a boxing fan. Of course I want to win. What is YOUR goal? To receive an "I Tried" certificate of participation?
You must be from California.
Bruce Winfield - No one wins , you have your opinion I have mine ! Thats it .....you are acting silly .wtf
Muhammad Rasheed - Bruce Winfield wrote: "No one wins..."
That's what everybody says when they lose. Go away now, you bother me.
Bruce Winfield - Here is an excerpt from the fight : Ali opened the fight moving and scoring with right crosses to Foreman's head. Then, beginning in the second round—and to the consternation of his corner—Ali retreated to the ropes and invited Foreman to hit him while covering up, clinching and counter-punching—all while verbally taunting Foreman. ("Is that all you got, George? They told me you could hit.") The move, which would later become known as the "Rope-A-Dope", so violated conventional boxing wisdom—letting one of the hardest hitters in boxing strike at will—that at ringside writer George Plimpton thought the fight had to be fixed. Foreman, increasingly angered, threw punches that were deflected and didn't land squarely. Midway through the fight, as Foreman began tiring, Ali countered more frequently and effectively with punches and flurries, which electrified the pro-Ali crowd. In the eighth round, Ali dropped an exhausted Foreman with a combination at center ring; Foreman failed to make the count. Against the odds, and amidst pandemonium in the ring, Ali had regained the title by knockout.
Muhammad Rasheed - An excerpt from whom? How about pull the fight up on YouTube and analyze it yourself? geez...
Muhammad Rasheed - Do it, and tell me the very first blow Ali lands.
Bruce Winfield - You are an immature keyboard warrior talking crap on the internet , the type thats quiet in person !
Muhammad Rasheed - I'm quiet now, too. I'm the only one in this room...
Muhammad Rasheed - Did you go to YouTube yet?
Bruce Winfield - I allready told you how I saw the fight and the general consensus is the same !
Muhammad Rasheed - Then why are you repeating the myth instead of what ACTUALLY happened? Watch it right now and tell me the very first blow Ali lands.
Bruce Winfield - If you were in a room with me you would be quiet as well !
Muhammad Rasheed - Bruce, seriously, I'm not interested in your sheeple foolishness. Go be old somewhere else since you don't (can't) have a real boxing analysis discussion. Go on now.
Bruce Winfield - I hear no boxing talk from you only weak insults
Muhammad Rasheed - I think you like it...
Bruce Winfield - No , you like it !
Muhammad Rasheed - Aw. You're adorable. Is that the height of your NY capping technique? Cute.
Well, I do. I can beat up on you all day, but I'm busy and you're dragging down the thread for me.
Tony Stewart - So the argument is whether Ali tied up it not on purpose and who was winning in the clinches?
Bruce Winfield - You not doing shit !
Muhammad Rasheed - It was fun while we were talking about the fantasy match, but then here you came with your goofy, "Hey, everyone! I'm Bundini Brown's cousin!"
Muhammad Rasheed - "Der-Pee-DERP!"
Bruce Winfield - Such a female type dude......lol
Muhammad Rasheed - @Tony… Bruce believes that the rope-a-dope consisted of Ali "laying on the ropes doing nothing while Foreman tired himself out" the way the myth relates the story-legend, and believes it was an impromptu move after Ali intended to dance all night like he was still named "Clay."
Muhammad Rasheed - I say it was always Ali's strategy to infight on the ropes while beating up on Foreman (naturally the ref would stop the fight if Ali was "doing nothing"), a strategy he hid from Foreman's corner so they would train their fighter a different way from what he actually intended. I say Ali had complete control over the fight, and beat the younger man on experience the way he told the press at an earlier press conference.
Kyle Richard - Cat fight.
Tony Stewart - Personally I think you're both right and both wrong~
Bruce Winfield - @Kyle Richard he 's the cat trying to scratch me with with his "nails"
Tony Stewart - Right cause unknown to everyone but Ali, that was his plan to make George tire out, his antics outside the ring all of that wasn't enough for Ali, he needed to work on George during the fight cause he a beast. So even Angelo was befuddled cause he was imploring Ali to stay off the ropes. Ali had his own game plan and he did it on the job!
Tony Stewart - Both wrong cause all this back and forth is aggravating to read on a thread about a fantasy mix up between Foreman and Holmes, not Foreman and Ali, geez. Now kith and make up!
Bruce Winfield - lol
Muhammad Rasheed - According to Thomas Hauser's biography, Ali was training on infighting and improving in exactly what he displayed during the event. Dundee didn't believe in that strategy, and feared Foreman's power, so when it came time for it he screamed to forget that stuff and "just be safe!"
Muhammad Rasheed - Naturally he didn't want Ali to do any of that experimental shit when it was time for the excitement of the real thing.
Muhammad Rasheed - I'm not kithing Bruce, he's from New York. I'll get ebola or something else crazy.
Muhammad Rasheed - (plus he's old)
Muhammad Rasheed - It certainly wasn't the only time Ali and his corner disagreed. There's a reason Angelo always described Ali's style as: "He did everything wrong, but it turned out right."
Muhammad Rasheed - Because Ali NEVER listened to his corner.
Bruce Winfield - See how he expresses his feminine side in a discussion on a computer !!
Tony Stewart - Of course he didn't. It ain't like Ali never trained at all on infighting, but for this fight he was focused on beating George up in ways that Angelo felt compromised him so he wasn't feeling it. He went on the offensive from the first round and kept to his own game plan but to everyone it seemed as tho he was letting George maul him to certain doom. That said, Holmes wins that 50 year matchup they woulda had if they had fought that fight~
Muhammad Rasheed - Tony Stewart wrote: "He went on the offensive from the first round and kept to his own game plan but to everyone it seemed as tho he was letting George maul him to certain doom."
Exactly. Everyone else thought that the ONLY way he would win was to dance and keep that monster at the end of his jab, and he allowed everyone to think that, too.
Muhammad Rasheed - The true experts who actually knew what they were looking at -- like Frazier -- saw his strategy for what it was. For the lay fans, like the reporters and Bruce here... it looked like he pulled off a magic trick.
Bruce Winfield - Sorry Muhammad Rasheed , been in boxing a long time ...you cant keep my name out your mouth why is that ? Like i said if you were in my presence you would be very quiet , so cut keyboard homo warrior shit and move on......this is pointless . We all have opinions and boxing is subjective !
Muhammad Rasheed - Boxing isn't subjective, it's a science. To people who have no idea how it functions it's magically subjective.
Muhammad Rasheed - I know you're hanging around struggling to figure out how you can turn this around and score a victory. Not gonna happen. First of all, your "playin' the dozens" technique is circa 1962 or whatever, and reads like I'm watching an old episode of Fat Albert & the Cosby Kids.
Second of all, get your intellect game up, Mr. Personal Trainer.
Tony Stewart - Geez...
FANTASY MATCH: Cyrano de Bergerac vs Inigo Montoya
FANTASY MATCH: Iron Mike Tyson vs Sonny Liston