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Bruce Ramsey - [LINK] ALLAH OF QURAN IS NOT A TRUE GOD | Facebook Chat Group
That's my kind of mosque.
Muhammad Rasheed -
Worshiping a human is disrespectful to both God and His servant Jesus (pbuh).
Hilarious, considering Christians routinely ignore their own scholars' findings in favor of blindly following the Greco-Roman pagan doctrine conjured by Constantine's Councils.
Bruce Ramsey - Only in Islam, yet, Muhammad gets worship, and he isn't even believed to be God.
Taqiyya is still "lying for Allah" in my book.
Muhammad Rasheed - Bruce wrote: "Only in Islam"
Only Islam counts. Christianity is compromised pagan trash.
Bruce Ramsey - Did you know that Muslims now reject the tafseers of like Al Tabari? If they don't present Islam the way they want, they reject them.
Muslims are the king of cherry picking Islam.
Muhammad Rasheed - Bruce wrote: "yet, Muhammad gets worship"
lol I'm not even going to ask you to explain that foolishness, since I know your own deification of the very human Hebrew prophet, son of Mary has rendered you mentally broken as a dedicated pagan.
Bruce Ramsey - Muslims also worship the Quran.
Believing a cat won't walk on it.
Muhammad Rasheed - Bruce wrote: "Did you know that"
Apparently, when hostile, biased outsiders lead with this, when they're about to start uselessly babbling about a faith system they've never seriously studied, I'm supposed to jump in pure curiosity & eagerness. lol
Bruce Ramsey - I bet even YOU reject the tafsirs, true?
Muhammad Rasheed - I'm an American, Bruce.
I have nothing but disdain for the long traditions of paganism that infest the Old World. If you can find a pocket of goons who lean pagan in how they express their Islam, that has nothing to do with me.
Bruce Ramsey - So you aren't even a Sunni Muslim?
Muhammad Rasheed - I'm just a Muslim, sir. I claim no sects.
Bruce Ramsey - They are pretty pagan. I mean, YOU think bowing down to the black stone started with Muhammad?
How many times a day do you pray?
HOW many times is that patooti in the air?
Sunnis have it 5 times a day in the air
due to what is written in the hadith.
Muhammad Rasheed - 1.) The Black Stone is a relic and sign of the One God. The pagans usurped Mecca for a time and then Muhammad (pbuh) cleansed it of pagan filth leaving only God's approved rituals.
2.) The Qur'an doesn't even mention the Black Stone.
3.) We bow in the direction of the House specifically, per God's command, not the Black Stone.
4.) It is not mandatory to touch the Black Stone during the Hajj. The prophet did it to pay respect to his Lord's ancient relic, so the believers like to follow that sunnah, but it is not mandatory at all. Outsiders trying to force it to be a pagan something is foolishness.
Bruce Ramsey - Was the black stone black when Muhammad kissed it?
Muhammad Rasheed - lol The Black Stone is a piece from the comet impact that initiated the Great Flood of legend. There's literally no reason to believe it was ever any other color but black.
Bruce wrote: "How many times a day do you pray?"
Minimum 5.
Maximum 15.
Bruce wrote: "due to what is written in the hadith."
How we perform the religion comes from the prophet's example, which is info that is found in the hadith. That's the reason the hadith were collected in the first place.
Bruce wrote: "I bet even YOU reject the tafsirs, true?"
I don't reject the entire body of any traditional Islamic literature. I only reject the material that doesn't align to what God said in the Qur'an.
Bruce Ramsey - So you DON'T believe the black stone was originally white until Muslims started kissing and touching it, absorbing their sins to turn it black, true?
Muhammad Rasheed - Bruce wrote: "Muslims are the king of cherry picking Islam."
Christians are the kings of cherry-picking Christianity (see: "Apocrypha").
Bruce Ramsey - Changing the subject, I see.
Muhammad Rasheed - Bruce wrote: "So you DON'T believe the black stone was originally white until Muslims started kissing and touching it, absorbing their sins to turn it black, true?"
lol God forgives our sins directly. The Black Stone has nothing at all to do with our sins in any way.
Bruce wrote: "Changing the subject, I see."
You posted a million different topics.
You are changing the subject.
Bruce Ramsey - You really aren't a Sunni, I see, for they believe it was white until it started absorbing their sins.
How so?
Muhammad Rasheed - I'm patiently trying to comment on everything you posted.
You're welcome, btw.
...while you complain about it.
Bruce Ramsey - Again, you really AREN'T a Sunni, I see.
Muhammad Rasheed - Again, I claim zero sects.
I am only a Muslim.
Bruce Ramsey - You DON'T believe what the hadith says, true? OR do you just cherry pick what you want to beleive?
Muhammad Rasheed - I believe what Allah said, and if a given hadith aligns to that, then I'll accept it.
Bruce Ramsey - If I were a Muslim, you know what part of the hadith I'd cherry pick to believe in?
Muhammad Rasheed - Don't care.
Bruce Ramsey - Where in the Quran are you to have your patooti up in the air five times a day?
Well, I'd believe the hadith that has Mo saying ONE hour of seeking knowledge is BETTER than 70 years of prayer.
Again, HOW many times a day do you pray if you cherry pick the hadith, which you clearly do.
Muhammad Rasheed - Bruce wrote: "Well, I'd believe the hadith that has Mo saying ONE hour of seeking knowledge is BETTER than 70 years of prayer."
I'm sure I said I didn't care what you thought about that.
Bruce Ramsey - Again, Again, HOW many times a day do you pray if you cherry pick the hadith, which you clearly do.
?
Muhammad Rasheed - Bruce wrote: "Again, HOW many times a day do you pray if you cherry pick the hadith, which you clearly do."
In the Qur'an, God said "establish regular prayer" and told the believers He approved of the way the prophet performed the religion and to just do it the way he did it.
The prophet maintained 5-mandatory prayers a day and an additional 10 voluntary prayers.
Bruce Ramsey - Oh, so you DO pray five times a day?
Muhammad Rasheed - I hate it when you jackasses start trying to rush people to answer. Who are you supposed to be, chest-hair? Calm your silly self down.
Muhammad Rasheed - Bruce wrote: "Oh, so you DO pray five times a day?"
Minimum 5.
Maximum 15.
Bruce Ramsey - FIFTEEN!?!?! Wow.
Muhammad Rasheed - Yesterday, I did about 8.
Bruce Ramsey - Did you know that Alah originally wanted it to be fifty?
Muhammad Rasheed - If Allah wanted it to be 50, then it would be 50.
Perhaps you need to re-word that.
Bruce Ramsey - But, Allah listened to Muhammad, who listened to Moses, and, got it down to the current five. Of course, I'm with Muhammad in that hadith about seeking knowledge for one hour, of course.
Muhammad Rasheed - 🙄
Bruce Ramsey - Something I found in a Sunni Muslim pamphlet on Islamic worship.
Muhammad Rasheed - I remember the story.
Bruce Ramsey - I can imagine you would. I certainly remember it.
Muhammad Rasheed - *shrug*
Bruce Ramsey - 🙂
Muhammad Rasheed - (a jew probably wrote it)
Bruce Ramsey - LOL!!!
Muhammad Rasheed - (since arguing with God like He's their peer is their ignorant shtick)
Bruce Ramsey - It supposedly happened when Mo flew the flying donkey thing up into Heaven.
Muhammad Rasheed - I know all about it.
Bruce Ramsey - I was led to believe such a creature left a hoof print on the rock that became the Dome of the Rock, but, when I looked for that print, there was no sign pointing to a hole saying "the hoof print of the Al Baraq".
Muhammad Rasheed - The "rock" of the Dome of the Rock mosque used to sit in the Holy of Holies and was the seat for the Ark of the Covenant. That's its actual historical significance.
I believe in the prophet's Night Journey with zero issue.
I'm skeptical of the additional tall-tale embellishments that were attached to it.
Bruce Ramsey - You REALLY believe he took a flying donkey like creature flight that resulted in talking Allah down from having you do 50 prayers a day to the current five?
Muhammad Rasheed - Bruce wrote: "You REALLY believe he took a flying donkey like creature flight"
I believe the prophet's consciousness was escorted first to Jerusalem, and then on a tour of heaven & hell, by the angel Gabriel, and then returned to his body in a single night. I accept this fully. The Qur'an only mentions some of the details, but says nothing about what form the angel took at all. Since it's impossible to really know which of the hadith's details were embellished or not over the centuries, I simply ignore them.
Bruce wrote: "that resulted in talking Allah down from having you do 50 prayers a day to the current five?"
If Allah wanted us to pray 50 times a day, then we would pray 50 times a day. No one is arguing with God.
Bruce Ramsey - Oh, you believe it was more of a dream that Muhammad took and not an actual flight. Well, that goes along with Aisha's account that he didn't leave the bed. Anyway, if I were a Muslim, I'd go for the seeking knowledge for one hour, the contemplation for one hour and the rank of being a man of silence, which, according to Muhammad in the latter, is better than divine service.
Muhammad Rasheed - Bruce wrote: "Oh, you believe it was more of a dream that Muhammad took and not an actual flight."
It was an actual flight that involved his disembodied consciousness. A "dream" is something different. This was a spirit vision using astral projection.
Bruce wrote: "Anyway, if I were a Muslim, I'd"
Don't care.
Bruce Ramsey - Well, it sounds more like a dream because the hadith has him viisting the Al Aqsa and the Temple of Solomon, which never existed in Muhamamd
Muhammad's time.
Muhammad Rasheed - I'm both a Muslim and a pro-Black American antiracism activist, Bruce. I have no interest in what you think about my religion. I don't trust you at all.
Bruce wrote: "Well, it sounds more like a dream"
No, it doesn't.
Bruce wrote: "because the hadith has him viisting the Al Aqsa and the Temple of Solomon, which never existed in Muhamamd"
The caliph later built the mosque over the ruins of the Temple of Solomon (pbuh). The prophet visited the ruins during his Night Journey.
Bruce Ramsey - Quran 98:6 says non-Musilms are the "worst of creatures", so, if I were a Muslim, I would't trust a guy like me as well.
In the hadith, Mo chains the Baraq to the wall of the mosque.
The Al Aqsa.
He CHAINS it. I guess to keep it from flying off.
Muhammad Rasheed - Bruce wrote: "Quran 98:6 says non-Musilms are the "worst of creatures", so, if I were a Muslim, I would't trust a guy like me as well."
98:6
Those who reject Truth, among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein for aye. They are the worst of creatures.
Accurate.
Bruce wrote: "He CHAINS it. I guess to keep it from flying off."
*shrug*
Bruce Ramsey - Reject the truth that we go through a forty-day blood clot stage? Reject the truth that the sun has a place of setting? THAT is truth?
Muhammad Rasheed - lol I'm also not interested in your willfully ignorant efforts to twist the material to mean something other than what it means because you're a hostile & biased outsider.
Naturally, this performance goes a long way towards me not trusting you at all. I don't respect your intellect. Courting hellfire is stupid.
Bruce Ramsey - Come on, you KNOW that's funny... CHAINS it to the wall of the mosque, to keep it from flying off? 🙂
When I was a Mormon, I was taught the same thing about non-Muslims.
I mean, non-Mormons.
When my dad left the Mormon church, I thought Satan got him.
He was almost a bishop, and, Satan got him, I believed.
I was 12 at the time.
Then my dad showed me the "Book of Breathings" (pagan Egyptian funeral documents) that Joseph Smith called "The Book of Abraham". So, Smith WAS right to an extent. It DID have the word "book" in the title. That was quite a coincidence.
Muhammad Rasheed - Bruce wrote: "Come on, you KNOW that's funny..."
Why would I think the mockery of my sacred belief system by a biased, hostile outsider was funny? 🤔
Do you likewise expect me to think your people kicking Muslims while they are prostrating in worship to be funny, too?
Bruce Ramsey - When they're blocking traffic? Do I have to answer that? 🙂
Muhammad Rasheed - "Joseph Smith"
The Mormonism guy? Why would I care about that nonsense?
Bruce Ramsey - What if Catholics were blocking traffic praying to an image of Mary with THEIR patootis up in the air? Would you have a problem with that?
He's a LOT like Muhammad, for one thing. Kind of like Muhammad without a sword or being into little girls.
Muhammad Rasheed - What was the context of the people praying? Was it some recently-arrived immigrants who didn't understand the local protocols, or was it a formal social protest performance?
Bruce Ramsey - It seems to be a Muslim thing to do now, to stop traffic by praying in the middle of the street, and, apparently India has had enough of that kind of selfishness.
Muhammad Rasheed - Bruce wrote: "He's a LOT like Muhammad, for one thing."
Muhammad (pbuh) was anointed by the One God and was the final prophet-messenger. That last item is why I ask why would I care about that nonsense.
Bruce Ramsey - What if Joseph Smith had a growing hairy mole on his back? Wouldn't that mean HE was a seal of the prophets, himself?
Muhammad Rasheed - Muhammad (pbuh) was the seal of the prophets because God revealed that he was, not because he had the mole on his back.
Bruce wrote: "It seems to be a Muslim thing to do now, to stop traffic by praying in the middle of the street, and, apparently India has had enough of that kind of selfishness."
This happened in India?
Bruce Ramsey - So, the hadith about him being the seal of the prophets due to having a growing hair mole on his back, is a hadith you don't believe, true?
The guy doing the kicking didn't look French, did he?
In France, there is a LOT of blocking traffic to do the prayer.
But, this looked like India.
Again, WOULD you have a problem if Catholics were blocking traffic praying to an image of Mary with THEIR patootis up in the air? Would you have a problem with that?
Muhammad Rasheed - Bruce wrote: "So, the hadith about him being the seal of the prophets due to having a growing hair mole on his back, is a hadith you don't believe, true?"
The hadith identified that he had a physical sign of his status, but the sign is the result of Allah's command, not the other way around.
You act like God saw the mole and was like, "Oh, snap. I guess THIS one is the seal!" lol
Bruce Ramsey - So having a growing hairy mole was NOT a sign of prophethood?
Muhammad Rasheed - Bruce wrote: "But, this looked like India."
There's 85 billion people in India. lol That's the problem right there.
Bruce Ramsey - So, if Catholics were blocking traffic praying to an image of Mary with THEIR patootis up in the air you WOULDN'T have a problem with that?
Muhammad Rasheed - Bruce wrote: "So having a growing hairy mole was NOT a sign of prophethood?"
I can't tell if you really didn't understand what I wrote, or if you're playing games again.
Bruce Ramsey - Oh, I see, it's because it was crowded that they were being kicked for blocking traffic, NOT because they were Muslim, true?"
Muhammad Rasheed - Bruce wrote: "So, if Catholics were blocking traffic praying to an image of Mary with THEIR patootis up in the air you WOULDN'T have a problem with that?"
I just don't know enough about what's going on, and you didn't even try to answer my clarification question.
So: "No comment."
"Insufficient information."
Bruce Ramsey - Guess what? I'd have a problem even if people believed like me were blocking traffic, making people angry.
Muhammad Rasheed - Bruce wrote: "Guess what? I'd have a problem"
Don't care.
I'm sure you get angry just seeing that they are Muslim on sight anyway.
Bruce Ramsey - You are just responding back because you have nothing else to do, true? 🙂
Muhammad Rasheed - I actually have a lot to do, but I'm also a sucker for wasting time typing on Social Media. lol
(that's why i keep you)
Bruce Ramsey - Actually, it was my way of bringing attention to my sensei, Christian Prince.
Muhammad Rasheed - 🙄
lol @ "sensei"
Bruce Ramsey - Who kicks upraised Sunni patooti in prostration on a prayer rug daily, though, metaphorically.
Muhammad Rasheed - If I see you do it, I'm cutting your hand off and the foot on the opposite side. FYI.
Bruce Ramsey - Yep, in the dojo of cyber space.
Oh, Quran 5:33 put into action. I bet you would.
Which is why I like that Indian guy.
Muhammad Rasheed - Bruce wrote: "Oh, Quran 5:33 put into action. I bet you would."
I wouldn't do it because of the Qur'an, since that's actually a theft punishment within a theocratic system and I'm not living in that.
I would do it because it would be funny. lol
Bruce Ramsey - After all, that is the ONLY way Islam can be defended.
Muhammad Rasheed - I'll scroll up to find comments that I missed while I wait for you to decide to try to make sense.
Muhammad Rasheed - Bruce wrote: "The guy doing the kicking didn't look French, did he?"
I didn't watch it.
Bruce Ramsey - I'm glad you were truthful with Quran 5:33.
Muhammad Rasheed - Bruce wrote: "When I was a Mormon, I was taught the same thing about non-Muslims."
This explains much. No wonder you have that lingering wackjob thing on you.
Bruce wrote: "I'm glad you were truthful with Quran 5:33."
lol I only referenced it a little. The full scope is that if they repent before they get arrested, and return what they stole, God said they should be pardoned.
Bruce Ramsey - I'm glad you were truthful with Quran 5:33. AND admitting to think it would be funny to do that to me.
Muhammad Rasheed - You said it's funny to kick Muslims while they are in worship, so why wouldn't it be funny to cut your hand off and the foot on the opposite side?
COME ON! Can't you see how hilarious that would be?
I see. It's only funny when you're abusing Muslims. awww...
Bruce Ramsey - Oh, getting kicked in the butt equals being maimed? Hmm.
No wonder Muslims think Israel is the problem and not Hamas obeying Quran 9:111.
Muhammad Rasheed - Disrespecting people while they are in worship is more serious than some lame maiming prank. Plus, you're probably going to hell anyway; what do you need two hands and two feet for?
Israel has been the problem since the end of WWII.
Bruce Ramsey - Having your limbs removed is a "prank" to you? Wow.
Muhammad Rasheed - Sure, why not?
I left the other hand & foot. Calm down.
If I took ALL FOUR, then you'd have cause to whine.
Bruce Ramsey - I bet you agree that the guy who created the following cartoon SHOUD have been killed. true?
Muhammad Rasheed - Is he French? 🤔
Bruce Ramsey - Does it matter?
The creator of the cartoon should die, even though it depicts what Islam teaches, true?
Muhammad Rasheed - Bruce wrote: "Does it matter?"
Are you serious? FRANCE. Hello?
Personally, I think anybody who depicts God as a white guy needs to be decapitated.
Bruce Ramsey - What was that again?
Muhammad Rasheed - Bruce wrote: "What was that again?"
Which part?
Yeah, f*ck the French. Ew.
Bruce Ramsey - About decapitating someone.
Muhammad Rasheed - "Personally, I think anybody who depicts God as a white guy needs to be decapitated."
Bruce Ramsey - What if the guy wasn't French, but, a black guy, and he drew that picture, but, Allah was black in the picture, WOULD you have a problem with that?
Muhammad Rasheed - I couldn't even get pass that part to read what the cartoon was actually saying...
Bruce Ramsey - F I take that picture and draw Allah as black, and the Jihadi as black, my hands and feet would be safe, true?
Muhammad Rasheed - Bruce wrote: "What if the guy wasn't French, but, a black guy, and he drew that picture, but, Allah was black in the picture, WOULD you have a problem with that?"
Yes. I hate anthropomorphic depictions of God. That hypothetical guy would deserve to be lashed and fined.
Muhammad Rasheed - Bruce wrote: "F I take that picture and draw Allah as black, and the Jihadi as black, my hands and feet would be safe, true?"
Decapitation.
Bruce Ramsey - Oh, but not killed.
Muhammad Rasheed - Hopefully, he'll learn his lesson.
Bruce Ramsey - Oh, I should be killed even if I draw the subjects as black and NOT white?
Muhammad Rasheed - You should be decapitated for your blasphemy.
Bruce Ramsey - Thanks for being truthful, sir.
Muhammad Rasheed - lol You're welcome!
Bruce Ramsey - Your lack of taqiyya is refreshing.
Muhammad Rasheed - *shrug*
Bruce Ramsey - The creator of that cartoon was Jordanian, not French.
Muhammad Rasheed - French-Jordanian? 🤔
Bruce Ramsey - I have no idea. I thought he was French, but, I think I'm confusing him with someone else. I just found out that he was Jordanian.
Muhammad Rasheed -
Bruce Ramsey - [LINK] If Muslims Can Show Me THIS... Then I Will Convert | YouTube
IN this video, his livestream is shut down to keep him from exposing the FIRST part of Quran 4:24 and 34.
By the way, I think this guy is better at exposing Islam than David Wood, though Wood makes more entertaining videos.
Muhammad Rasheed - No one is "exposing Islam" 🙄
All they are doing is putting the same fallacy-laden false narratives on repeat for monetized content.
Who cares about a biased, hostile outsider's goofy interpretation of the faith they never tried to study? Ignorant propaganda smears aren't real.
Bruce Ramsey - If I were a Muslim, I wouldn't want to see what this guy was saying so I'd keep on having my patooti up in the air five times a day on a prayer rug, even if I was a black Muslim, I wouldn't see what this guy was saying. But, hey, IF you ever start wanting to seek knowledge for ONE hour, or contemplate for ONE hour, check out this bro
Muhammad Rasheed - Bruce wrote: "If I were a Muslim"
lol Why do you keep saying that to me?
What is that intended to mean when projected in my direction?
Bruce Ramsey - If I were still a Mormon, I'd probably not want to see how Smith blew it with the Book of Breathings that he claimed was the Book of Abraham.
Muhammad Rasheed - Do you know what I mean when I refer to you as a "biased, hostile outsider" to my faith?
How could "If I were a Muslim" be an objective phrase coming from you? Seriously?
Your opinion is trash.
Bruce Ramsey - My dad didn't start questioning Mormonism until he started seeing things wrong with that faith. Apparently, you don't see problems with Islam, even though it blows it badly with science.
Muhammad Rasheed - Your 'argument' is full of sophistry and you don't even try to understand the religion. So, how could "If I were Muslim" coming from you, ever mean anything of value to me?
Bruce Ramsey - Ok, how about, "If I was a Muslim who LOVED to have my patooti in the air five times a day on a prayer rug" I wouldn't want to see something that would call that act into question?
Muhammad Rasheed - Bruce wrote: "My dad didn't start questioning Mormonism until he started seeing things wrong with that faith."
False equivalency fallacy. 'Mormonism' is objectively trash. Islam is objectively the Truth.
Bruce wrote: "Apparently, you don't see problems with Islam, even though it blows it badly with science"
lol Okay, now you might be trying to get interesting. Give me your examples.
Muhammad Rasheed - Bruce wrote: "Ok, how about, 'If I was a Muslim who LOVED to have my patooti in the air five times a day on a prayer rug' I wouldn't want to see something that would call that act into question?"
All you did was add more words to the same fundamental problem. lol
Bruce Ramsey - IF you love being a Muslim, you aren't going to want to see problems in it, am I right?
So, what is it that you love about being a Muslim?
Muhammad Rasheed - 1.) That the Qur'an is exactly what it claims to be and is the only pure revelation from God on earth. This is Islam's greatest strength.
2.) That all of your (meaning all disbelievers) criticisms are already debunked, and all you have are transparent sophistry tricks to confuse people. You can't tackle the material truthfully, with an open mind or you will end up converting. This is everyone's experience.
Those two items are what stand out to me most about Islam in this phase of my life.
Bruce Ramsey - So, because the Quran says it's all that, you believe it, because?
Bruce Ramsey - And that would be?
Muhammad Rasheed - What would what be?
This phase of my life?
Bruce Ramsey - That stand out in your life.
Muhammad Rasheed - Those two numbered bullets I just posted.
Bruce Ramsey - Because the Quran says so?
Muhammad Rasheed - Bruce wrote: "Because the Quran says so?"
I thought you were a Christian? No? Did I somehow mess that up?
Bruce Ramsey - I'm a "Person of the Book".
Muhammad Rasheed - Do you understand the concept of "faith/belief?"
Bruce Ramsey - Yes. It's hoping for something without evidence.
Muhammad Rasheed - I assumed that we had that part in common, no?
...as fellow Abrahamic theists?
I wasn't expecting an atheist's position from you.
Bruce Ramsey - Again, faith is hope in something without evidence, true?
Muhammad Rasheed - How would I consider that true when that's the Pauline Western Christian definition of the term?
The Qur'an is evidence of God's existence, and so is the creation itself.
Bruce Ramsey - Where is the evidence?
Of Allah's existence?
Muhammad Rasheed - God said He would preserve the Qur'an, and recent (secular) scholarship out of the Leiden University Centre for Linguistics proved that it has been preserved from the time of the prophet.
After 1400 yrs, that's objectively miraculous.
Bruce Ramsey - I believe in a Creator, but, how do you know it's Allah?
Muhammad Rasheed - There is Only One Creator and "Allah" is what He is called in the Arabic language.
Bruce Ramsey - If you are right, where is the book of breast feeding adult males ten times to make them less horny? But, that's from sahih, and you don't believe in the hadith when it's embarrassing, true?
I don't see how believing in one god makes that religion true.
Muhammad Rasheed - Everything after "If you are right" didn't make a lick of sense.
Bruce Ramsey - Yes it did.
Bruce Ramsey - You claim there is no change in the Quran, yet, the sahih has one believing a goat ate verses from the Quran. But, again YOU don't believe the hadith, true?
Muhammad Rasheed - Qur'an is preserved from the time of Muhammad (pbuh). I just discovered those findings in the last couple of months, and it impresses me and strengthens my faith. God said those who reject the signs are perverse, so to me, that 100% explains your attitude about it.
Bruce Ramsey - Which Quran do you believe? The Hafs or the Worsh?
Muhammad Rasheed - Bruce wrote: "yet, the sahih"
I explained what "sahih" actually referred to
in previous discussions, yet you are here arguing from a position as if I hadn't.
How am I to respond to that kind of clearly unserious behavior? You either want to seriously discuss the material, or you want to play unserious games around it.
Bruce wrote: "Which Quran do you believe? The Hafs or the Worsh?"
lol What do you believe is the difference between the two?
Bruce Ramsey -
Muhammad Rasheed - Bruce wrote: "Which Quran do you believe? The Hafs or the Worsh?"
Personally, I find this position of yours to be far worse than your normal sophistry trick bag. It's not only hypocritical, but the bible is a literal mess compared to what you're trying to pretend the Qur'an is here.
Bruce Ramsey - You mean the "before Scriptures" the Quran says it confirms? By the way, IF there was no change in the Quran, why did Uthman order six versions to be burned? Doesn't the Quran say NO one can change or alter Allah's words?
Muhammad Rasheed - Bruce wrote: "By the way, IF there was no change in the Quran, why did Uthman order six versions to be burned? Doesn't the Quran say NO one can change or alter Allah"
lol You can see the obvious hint in the comparative graphic you just posted. The difference was only in dialect. The caliph wanted a standard Qur'an that was only in the hejazi dialect of the Quraysh Arabs who first spoke it. He was a language purist and in this particular case, I agree 100% with his decision.
The differences were only in pronunciation, not in the messaging.
Bruce Ramsey - So, if six perfectly good Qurans were burned?
Muhammad Rasheed - Yes?
Bruce Ramsey - Just because they were recited in differencing dialects?
Muhammad Rasheed - Yes.
Bruce Ramsey - If I recite a Quran in a different dialect, that Quran has to be burned? Really?
That makes sense to you?
Is the Hafs a different dialect to you from the Worsh?
Muhammad Rasheed - In fact, once the standardized hejazi dialect one was completed, the caliph assembled teams of official reciters to go out with the copies to instruct people in the formal recitation of the hejaz Qur'an. It was a very organized and structured campaign. Clearly very successful.
Bruce Ramsey - What's a "different dialect" to you? Example, please.
Muhammad Rasheed - Bruce wrote: "That makes sense to you?"
100%
Bruce Ramsey - What does "difference dialect mean to you?
What's "difference dialect", please.
Muhammad Rasheed - Bruce wrote: "What's a "different dialect" to you? Example, please."
The way New Yorkers speak English versus the way Mississippians speak English.
Bruce Ramsey - Oh, so accents, is what you mean, NOT dialect. OK.
So, if I read the Quran in an Irish accent... BURN that Quran, true? 🙂
Muhammad Rasheed - Why are you so impatient?
Can you wait an extra four seconds for me to type? wtf?
Stop doing that stupid sh*t.
Bruce Ramsey - 🙂
Muhammad Rasheed - YOU should be burned. F*ck the Irish.
Bruce Ramsey - LOL! 🙂
BURN the Quran if someone reads it in a Mexican accent as well?
How about a black accent, know
m' saying
Muhammad Rasheed - Also f*ck Mexico and burn YOU for your blasphemy.
Bruce wrote: "How about a black accent, know"
Lashes & a fine.
Bruce Ramsey - It's blasphemeous to question Islam, isn't it?
🙂
Muhammad Rasheed - No.
Bruce Ramsey - After all, the Quran says to not question it 5:101-102 does it not?
Muhammad Rasheed - It's blasphemous to blaspheme it while pretending to question it with sophistry tricks & scams.
Bruce Ramsey - If you do, you leave Islam.
Muhammad Rasheed - Bruce wrote: "After all, the Quran says to not question it 5:101-102 does it not?"
That's not what it's saying.
Bruce Ramsey - Read the "clear book" 5"101-102, OK?
OH? Put how it REALLY sounds, Ok?
🙂
Muhammad Rasheed - I know exactly what 5:101-102 means, Bruce. You're confused about it or pretending to be confused.
Bruce Ramsey - Then put how it REALLY sounds, OK? 🙂
Muhammad Rasheed -
Bruce Ramsey - Again, BURN the Quran if I read it in the accent of a Mexican, true?
Muhammad Rasheed - Again, burn YOU if you read it in an ignorant Spanish accent.
Bruce Ramsey - How is what you posted NOT what I believe it was saying?
Muhammad Rasheed - ...and kick your ashes down a hill.
Bruce Ramsey - LOL!!!!
🙂
Muhammad Rasheed - Bruce wrote: "How is what you posted NOT what I believe it was saying?"
Because you're retarded and apparently can barely read.
Bruce Ramsey - Again, HOW are the two scriptures NOT what they are sayhing too ME!!?! 🙂
How am I wrong about them?
🙂
Anyway, I have to take off now. THINK, please... THINK.
Muhammad Rasheed - Allah is telling people that if there are parts of the faith that you just can't wrap your mind around it—it represents a weakness for you—then leave it alone.
For example, there were many Muslims who quit the religion after the prophet told them about the Night Journey; it just sounded too bizarre to them and they couldn't process it AT ALL. Some people genuinely hate the "spooky" side of religion and need to just focus on the practical earthly parts of it so they don't endanger their faith walk. That's what it's saying.
Bruce wrote: "THINK, please... THINK."
Very ironic coming from you. #VeilOfIgnorance
Your scriptural analysis skills are nonexistent.
Bruce wrote: "Is the Hafs a different dialect to you from the Worsh?"
I'm not an Arab. I wouldn't be able to tell the difference if they were being recited to me. That was something for the Arabic-speaking, People of the Book to work out among themselves to prepare their duty in sending the Word of God out to the rest of us.
What stands out is the obvious care and attention the early Muslims took with the scriptures they were charged with versus the total criminal neglect the previous people of the book performed in their blasphemous slipshod guardianship.
So, when you asked me, "That makes sense to you?" it made you look dumb as a rock.
How could a demonstration of high-level scriptural preservation not make sense? 🤨
This is what it looks like when you 'think' from your hostile biases against the faith, instead of using your actual intellect to objectively analyze what you are reading.
Bruce wrote: "Oh, so accents is what you mean, NOT dialect. OK."
There's definitely differences in vocabulary and grammar between how New Yorkers and Mississippians talk. They aren't just saying the exact same sentences using different pronunciations. They have different turns of phrase in how they express themselves in the same language, often making their speech impenetrable to one another, mentioned in light mockery when they are together.
You either need to get out more, or disingenuousness is part of your sophistry trick bag.
Bruce Ramsey - The Rosetta Stone showed differences in languages, making it so we could know what the Egyptian was saying. Are you saying that because the Quran is in different languages other than Arabic, THOSE Qurans should be burned? THAT is why Uthman burned them because they were in different languages? Well, that makes FAR more sense than burning a Quran just because I recited it in an Irish accent. You CAN see why I was laughing at you when you were trying to say to burn it for reciting it in an accent, can't you?
Oh, one more thing... is the Worsh in a different dialect or different Arabic compared to the Hafs' version of the Quran?
Muhammad Rasheed - Bruce wrote: "Are you saying that because the Quran is in different languages other than Arabic, THOSE Qurans should be burned?"
I'm saying that the caliph wanted an official Standardized Qur'an in his beloved friend's hejazi dialect that it was revealed in. He initiated a campaign that ensured there was an official Qur'an published for the world's usage, a campaign which came with a removal of all copies that varied from the standard.
Once that goal was completed and formally established in the Muslim community—with no danger of any kind of language variant in either a different Arabic dialect, or Greek, Latin, etc., translation overtaking the standard—then it was fine to make translations since it was now understood that none of those others were (or could be) confused with the Official Standard.
I apologize that you couldn't discern my jokes from my actual point. I should've made myself more clear before I started goofing around.
Bruce wrote: "Oh, one more thing... is the Worsh in a different dialect or different Arabic compared to the Hafs' version of the Quran?"
Does your version of a "simple Google search" involve opening up a Favorites tab to Sam Shamoun's website?
lol
Bruce Ramsey - It wasn't a Google search. Here is an example of the Worsh differing from the Hafs (one of them in picture form):
Now, are those dialect changes, or Arabic changes?
Muhammad Rasheed - I saw it the first time. Did you notice that the message isn't changing?
Bruce Ramsey - By the way, I went to a mosque and talked with the Imam and he said there is no difference between the Worsh and the Hafs in Arabic. Was he being truthful, or, doing traqiyya (lyiing for Allah)?
"He fought" is the same in meaning as "he was killed"?
"They disbelieved you" is the same as "They lied to you"?
Muhammad Rasheed - Bruce wrote: "By the way, I went to a mosque and"
I don't believe you.
I can't imagine anything more worthless than an anecdotal logical fallacy from a hostile and biased outsider. Who cares what you claim you did? Do you remember how badly you messed up the clear 5:101-102?
Bruce Ramsey - If there is no difference there, are you SURE it was a dialect problem resulting in the burning of those six Qurans as ordered by Uthman?
Muhammad Rasheed - You're dumb as f*ck on this topic.
Bruce Ramsey - If you think me messing up with Quran 5:101-102 is a mess-up, you are being funny.
Muhammad Rasheed - Bruce wrote: "If there is no difference there, are you SURE it was a dialect problem resulting in the burning of those six Qurans as ordered by Uthman?"
Very sure.
"100%" is how I put it earlier.
Do you think your willfully ignorant-based sophistry is strong enough to plant a seed of doubt in me? 🤔
Bruce Ramsey - What you presented about those two scriptures supported my side about them.
Muhammad Rasheed - No, the hell it didn't, clown.
Bruce Ramsey - So, you REALLY feel He fought" is the same in meaning as "he was killed"? "They disbelieved you" is the same as "They lied to you"? Really?
Muhammad Rasheed - Bruce wrote: "If you think me messing up with Quran 5:101-102 is a mess-up, you are being funny."
I'm serious as heck.
Or do you want me to think you are just stupid and incapable of processing information?
I can go either way.
Bruce Ramsey - I want you to think I'm stupid, it's more fun that way. 🙂"
Muhammad Rasheed - Bet. 😉
Bruce Ramsey - He fought" is the same in meaning as "he was killed"?
"They disbelieved you" is the same as "They lied to you"?
Muhammad Rasheed - A stupid clown, or just stupid?
Bruce Ramsey - How about both? LOL!!! 🙂
He fought" is the same in meaning as "he was killed"?
"They disbelieved you" is the same as "They lied to you"?
Dialect problem? REASON to burn the Quran? If not, HOW bad were those Qurans Uthman ordered burned?
Thiink, please.
Muhammad Rasheed - Bruce wrote: "So, you REALLY feel"
lol I really feel that the English translation of Arabic isn't perfect, so an anonymous chart trying to solidify the meaning between two old Arabic dialect words is a disingenuous performance.
There are quite a few English translations of the Standardized Qur'an, but you want me to believe that stupid chart means a VERY SPECIFIC THING that is at odds with the truth around the language translation arts in general. lol
There you go again, looking like a stupid clown.
And you're proud of it.
Bruce Ramsey - M. Rasheed wrote: "lol I really feel that the English translation of Arabic isn't perfect,"
Does the Arabic in the post look the same between the Worsh and Hafs?
M. Rasheed wrote: "so an anonymous chart trying to solidify the meaning between two old Arabic dialect words is a disingenuous performance."
Oh, so you DON'T believe the Arabic presented, true?
M. Rasheed wrote: "There are quite a few English translations of the Standardized Qur'an,"
Like the Bible, right.
M. Rasheed wrote: "but you want me to believe that stupid chart means a VERY SPECIFIC THING that is at odds with the truth around the language translation arts in general. lol"
YOU believe the Arabic has been changed for the chart and the Arabic of the Worsh is the SAME as the Hafs', tue?
Muhammad Rasheed -
That's a sample 19 of 60 different English translations of the same verse from the Standardized Qur'an.
That means, whatever you are trying to argue about your little chart is stupid.
You either want to argue the material for real, or you just want to play games.
Bruce Ramsey - I'm not talking different English versions of the Quran, for that is supposedly only a problem when it's the Bible that has diferent English translations. I'm talking about the ARABIC of the Quran. You saw the differences between the Worsh and the Hafs, but, you believe that is a DIALECT problem, true?
Muhammad Rasheed - Bruce wrote: "I'm not talking different English versions of the Quran"
Both your chart and your questioning are literally comparing the English translations of the different Arabic dialect words.
THINK, please.
Bruce Ramsey - It's a DIALECT problem and NOT an actual change in the meaning, true?
Muhammad Rasheed - True.
Based on my example in the 19/60 English translations of the same verse.
Bruce Ramsey - You think the Arabic of the Worsh is the same as the Hafs, but, you feel it's a dialect change and NOT a change in the Arabic, true?
Muhammad Rasheed - The meaning is the same between the Worsh/Haf dialect verses, true.
Bruce Ramsey - So, you REALLY feel He fought" is the same in meaning as "he was killed"? "They disbelieved you" is the same as "They lied to you"? Really?
Muhammad Rasheed - The actual subject matter experts (secular) who conducted the study at the Leiden University Centre for Linguistics proved that the differences were not in content meaning.
Bruce Ramsey - So, again, you REALLY feel He fought" is the same in meaning as "he was killed"? "They disbelieved you" is the same as "They lied to you"? Really?
Muhammad Rasheed - Bruce wrote: "So, you REALLY feel 'He fought' is the same in meaning as 'he was killed?' 'They disbelieved you' is the same as 'They lied to you?' Really?"
You're still trying to argue something that was INSTANTLY debunked with the 19/60 sample.
You don't have an argument.
Read through that and you will find the same level of "He fought"/"he was killed" discrepancies in the different English language translations.
Obviously, the problem isn't in the Arabic itself, but in the common, universal problem of translating.
Bruce Ramsey - Did you look at the Arabic on the list provided? Does it look the same?
Muhammad Rasheed - Uthman got rid of the variant dialect copies. That's all, which it what the Leiden University Centre for Linguistics researchers found.
Muhammad Rasheed - Bruce wrote: "Did you look at the Arabic on the list provided? Does it look the same?"
New York English versus Mississippi English.
Does "youse guys" look different than "y'all" to you?
THINK, please.
Stupid.
I'm about to Block you.
Bruce Ramsey - You post different versions of the Quran in English, but, in the process, you let the Bible off the hook when Muslims claim the Bible has been corrupted due to it having different ENGLISH translations. But, if the original Greek and Hebrew is DIFFERENT from, then you have a Worsh/Hafs situation, do you not?
Muhammad Rasheed - False equivalency fallacy.
The bible's problem is NOT one of mere translation.
Bruce Ramsey - And, if you read the Hafs and the Worsh, neither is the Quran.
[LINK] They Live (1988) Fight Scene - HD 1080p | YouTube
Muhammad Rasheed - Christian scholars admit that the bible is a fabricated document written by anonymous authors to push various evangelical agendas often at odds. That is NOT a "translation" problem, but one of deliberate corruption.
Bruce Ramsey - And, if they are right, I don't see how that makes Islam true when ithe Quran says it confirms a book YOU bleieve is either corrpted or lost.
Muhammad Rasheed - The Qur'an confirms that God sent His revelation to the previous prophets to preach messages He refers to as "Books" even when it was never written down..
The bible cannot pretend to be those works.
The bible is just a hadith collection, not a 'Qur'an.'
(a weak hadith collection at that)
Bruce Ramsey - NEVER written down? Quran 10:94 says to GO to those who have been READING (not reciting) READING the "before Scriptures".
Muhammad Rasheed - lol Do you remember the Gabriel in the cave story that you mock all the time?
Why did the prophet keep telling the angel he couldn't "read?"
Because "Iqra" means both "read" and "RECITE."
The angel meant the latter.
Do you have any real arguments, or no?
Bruce Ramsey - Oh, so Muhammad had now short term memory and couldn't recite? Really?
Mo couldn't recite? No short term memory?
Muhammad Rasheed - The angel was able to download the first 5-6 verses of Surah 96 into him once the prophet relaxed.
Bruce Ramsey - Hmm
Muhammad Rasheed - So, none of what you just posted made any sense.
Bruce Ramsey - Where does it say he relaxed? As I remember it, Mo thought he was demon possessed. Would you feel relaxed after being squeezed to near death every time you said you cou;dn
Muhammad Rasheed - He couldn't recite because he didn't have the Book yet, true?
Bruce Ramsey - couldn't recite? THINK, please.
Then why was he squeezed to near death for telling the truth?
Muhammad Rasheed - Once he realized what the angel was saying (telepathy?), he relaxed and was able to receive the revelation. *shrug*
Bruce Ramsey - Where is the hadith that says he relaxed after being squeezed to near death?
For not "reciting"?
Muhammad Rasheed - Why would I have that?
Obviously, that's what happened or he would have suffocated instead, true?
Bruce Ramsey - In the hadith, it takes his wife to convince him that
"Jibril"? wasn't a demon, but, an angel.
Muhammad Rasheed - What about it?
Bruce Ramsey - She's basically the first Muslim.
Muhammad Rasheed - She literally is the first Muslim.
What about it?
Bruce Ramsey - Right, by sitting on Mo's knees. making the "angel" back out of the room after Mo was terrified and telling her to "cover him".
Didn't sound very relaxed too me.
Muhammad Rasheed - The prophet left the cave and went home where his wife comforted him. He didn't get another visit rom Gabriel for a while after that.
Bruce wrote: "Didn't sound very relaxed too me."
Relaxed enough to receive the revelation. Not relaxed enough to not be disturbed at the encounter, true?
Bruce wrote: "making the 'angel' back out of the room"
You doubt that it was an angel of the Lord that delivered the Qur'an, do you?
Bruce Ramsey - The revelation was to "read in the name of your Lord!" I mean, "recite". 🙂
RECITE in the name of your Lord who created you from a clot of blood" (which you find out is 40-days in duration).
40-day old blood clot... I kid you not.
Muhammad Rasheed - Bruce wrote: "The revelation was to 'read in the name of your Lord!' I mean, 'recite.' 🙂"
We have homonyms in English, too, it turns out, true?
Bruce Ramsey - Not in the Quran, the hadith that you find out the duration of BEING a blood clot.
Oh, I'm talking to my girlfirend. I'll be back.
Muhammad Rasheed - Bruce wrote: "NEVER written down?"
The Qur'an is composed of the revelation preached by the prophet strictly recorded verbatim.
None of the bible's books matches that description. They are instead all narratives and epistles talking about the missions of the prophets and some contain bits & pieces of the message itself.
Bruce Ramsey - The fact that we ended up with different versions of the Quran in Arabic is proof that it was created verbatim.
Muhammad Rasheed - The actual experts in the field conducted a detailed, £2 million study at the Leiden University Centre for Linguistics and proved this comment wrong in every way.
But feel free to keep repeating it ad nauseum.
Bruce Ramsey - What's a change in dialect to you?
Muhammad Rasheed - Maybe pagan Divine White Jesus® will magic it true.
Dumbass.
Everything you have is corrupted nonsense, while everything I have is true.
Eat it.
Bruce Ramsey - You DID say that the Quran should be burned if I recite it in an Irish accent, did you not?
Muhammad Rasheed - And there's nothing you can do about it but play butthurt troll games.
Bruce Ramsey - You mean, question games.
Muhammad Rasheed - Bruce wrote: "You DID say that the Quran should be burned if I recite it in an Irish accent, did you not?"
So?
What about it?
Bruce Ramsey - Does that really make sense to you?
Muhammad Rasheed - Let's say I did actually say that instead of saying YOU should be burned.
What about it?
Bruce Ramsey - I think you have a tendency to say things without thinking it through, that's what I think.
Muhammad Rasheed - Bruce wrote: "Does that really make sense to you?"
Does a joke comment "make sense?" In what way?
Is that your roundabout way of saying my joke wasn't funny?
Bruce Ramsey - I mean, WHY burn a Quran if I read it with an Irish accent?
Oh, so you were trying to be funny?
Your way of ignoring the question?
Muhammad Rasheed -
Bruce Ramsey - YOU think that answers the question?
Muhammad Rasheed - I think it demonstrates the colossal lack of integrity that lays at the heart of your sophistry.
Bruce Ramsey - Uthman burned six versions of the Quran due to differences. Muslims try to say it was due to a change in dialects. WHAT does THAT mean, please?
Muhammad Rasheed - Notice that you're claiming I said something with my Irish gag that I didn't actually say.
Curious.
Bruce Ramsey - What is a dialectical change to you IF it's not a different Arabic word in the Hafs from the Worsh?
Muhammad Rasheed - Bruce wrote: "WHAT does THAT mean, please?"
I explained it earlier at length.
Did you ignore it, or miss it or...?
What?
Bruce Ramsey - Again, what is a dialectical change to you IF it's not a different Arabic word in the Hafs from the Worsh?
WHAT would cause a Quran to be burned IF the Arabic hasn't been changed?
Muhammad Rasheed -
Bruce wrote: "Again"
lol
I think you're becoming unhinged now. lol
Bruce Ramsey - 🙂
Bruce Ramsey - Again, what is a dialectical change to you IF it's not a different Arabic word in the Hafs from the Worsh?
WHAT would cause a Quran to be burned IF the Arabic hasn't been changed?
You were joking about burning it if I recited in in an Irish accent, right?
Again, what is a dialectical change to you IF it's not a different Arabic word in the Hafs from the Worsh?
WHAT would cause a Quran to be burned IF the Arabic hasn't been changed?
Muhammad Rasheed - It makes sense to me that if you are really concerned about standardizing a particular dialect, that you would get rid of the copies in competing dialects to prevent confusion.
I do understand why you would balk at the idea, since literally nothing about the bible in any way, shape, or form demonstrates a respect for scriptural preservation, so obviously that would be completely alien to you.
Bruce wrote: "You were joking about burning it if I recited in in an Irish accent, right?"
You're using the word "right" incorrectly. Your lack of integrity lens distorts it terribly.
Now it's my turn to leave you high-n-dry. 😠
I'm going to pray, I'll be right back.
Try not to break FB while I'm out.
Does "grave defects" sound like the "inerrant Word of God" to you? Y/N?
😬 yikes...
Bruce Ramsey - M. Rasheed wrote: "It makes sense to me that if you are really concerned about standardizing a particular dialect that you would get rid of the ones in competing dialects to prevent confusion."
Oh, so it's not how you recite it in an accent, it IS how it's written in ARABIC to MAKE you recite in a "dialect", true?
M. Rasheed wrote: "I do understand why you would balk at the idea since literally nothing about the bible in any way shape or form demonstrates a respect for scriptural preservation, so obviously that would be completely alien to you."
If God wants to change His Word, so be it. I don't see any change in the Old Testament when I know about the Dead Sea Scrolls, and, as far as the New goes, having things added to it over the years doesn't bother me, either.
But, since the Quran says NO one can change or altered Allah's words, well, why burn six perfectly preserved Qurans?
Muhammad Rasheed - Bruce wrote: "Oh, so it's not how you recite it in an accent, it IS how it's written in ARABIC to MAKE you recite in a 'dialect,' true?"
See the New York ("youse guys") versus Mississippi ("y'all") example.
Bruce Ramsey - M. Rasheed wrote: "You're using the word 'right' incorrectly. Your lack of integrity lens distorts it terribly."
I don't see how.
M. Rasheed wrote: "Now it's my turn to leave you high-n-dry. 😠"
OK.
M. Rasheed wrote: "I'm going to pray, I'll be right back."
OK.
M. Rasheed wrote: "Try not to break FB while I'm out."
OK.
M. Rasheed wrote: "Does 'grave defects' sound like the 'inerrant Word of God' to you? Y/N?"
I need to know the context.
Muhammad Rasheed - Bruce wrote: "If God wants to change His Word, so be it."
That point is moot since He generously repeated what He revealed to His previous prophets in the Qur'an. His Word hasn't changed at all. I certainly hope you're not trying to pretend that pagan White Jesus® claptrap came from God. lol
Bruce wrote: "I don't see any change in the Old Testament when I know about the Dead Sea Scrolls"
The Jews don't accept the Dead Sea Scroll fragments and consider then written by a heretical group. Also, I certainly hope you're not one of those dumbasses who assume that the DSS represent a complete book? 🤨
Bruce wrote: "and, as far as the New goes, having things added to it over the years doesn't bother me, either."
What about literal forgeries that the original never said? That doesn't bother you? See my comment about how scriptural preservation being alien to you. I'll betcha "grave defects" doesn't bother you either, amirite?
Bruce wrote: "But, since the Quran says NO one can change or altered Allah's words, well, why burn six perfectly preserved Qurans?"
How would that be relevant at all considering? You're acting like they burned ALL the Qur'ans and forgot the message entirely and replaced it with, let's say pagan Divine White Jesus® claptrap.
Bruce Ramsey - So "He fought" changed to "he was killed" is like "youse guys" changed to "y'all"? That "they disbelieved you" changed to "they lied to you", same thing? Really?
Muhammad Rasheed - Bruce wrote: "I don't see how"
I said burn YOU in my gag, not the Qur'an. Try to keep up.
Bruce wrote: "I need to know the context."
I literally posted the page copy that explains the context. smh
Bruce wrote: "So 'He fought' changed to 'he was killed' is like 'youse guys' changed to 'y'all?' That 'they disbelieved you' changed to 'they lied to you,' same thing? Really?"
This counts as a false equivalency fallacy.
You're comparing the raggedy English translations of the dialects in your chart to my example of different English dialects saying the same thing but written in different ways through local cultural expression.
Is that an honest, but poorly thought out mistake, or yet another lack of integrity demo?
Bruce Ramsey - M. Rasheed wrote: "That point is moot since He generously repeated what He revealed to His previous prophets in the Qur'an. His Word hasn't changed at all. I certainly hope you're not trying to pretend that pagan White Jesus® claptrap came from God. lol"
So the Bible DIDN'T change? Quran 10:94 IS to be followed?
M. Rasheed wrote: "The Jews don't accept the Dead Sea Scroll fragments and consider then written by a heretical group."
Even if true, so?
M. Rasheed wrote: "Also, I certainly hope you're not one of those dumbasses who assume that the DSS represent a complete book? 🤨"
No, for the book of Esther is missing.
M. Rasheed wrote: "What about literal forgeries that the original never said? That doesn't bother you? See my comment about how scriptural preservation being alien to you. I'll betcha 'grave defects' doesn't bother you either, amirite?"
Too me, what is important is Christ crucified for our sins, that is the "Injeel" too me.
M. Rasheed wrote: "How would that be relevant at all considering?"
That Uthman burned six different versions of the Quran because one had something like "youse guys" and the other had "ya'll"?
M. Rasheed wrote: "You're acting like they burned ALL the Qur'ans and forgot the message entirely and replaced it with, let's say pagan Divine White Jesus® claptrap."
Well, IF "He fought" changed to "he was killed", and "they disbelieved you" changed to "they lied to you" is NOT a change to you, sounds like it was MORE than just "youse guys" changed to "y'all" when it comes to dialectic changes.
M. Rasheed wrote: "I said burn YOU in my gag, not the Qur'an. Try to keep up."
Oh, diversion.
M. Rasheed wrote: "I literally posted the page copy that explains the context. smh"
Which was?
M. Rasheed wrote: "This counts as a false equivalency fallacy."
What does?
M. Rasheed wrote: "You're comparing the raggedy English translations of the dialects in your chart to my example of different English dialects saying the same thing but written in different ways through local cultural expression."
Did the Arabic look the same to you?
M. Rasheed wrote: "Is that an honest, but poorly thought out mistake, or yet another lack of integrity demo?"
Did the Arabic of the Worsh look like the Hafs with those scriptures in question?
Muhammad Rasheed - Bruce wrote: "Well, IF 'He fought' changed to 'he was killed,' and 'they disbelieved you' changed to 'they lied to you' is NOT a change to you"
It sounds suspiciously like you're still trying to pretend the English translation in your chart means a very specific thing that was already debunked with the 19/60 translations you appear to have already forgotten about.
Bruce wrote: "Did the Arabic of the Worsh look like the Hafs with those scriptures in question?"
See the New York ("youse guys") versus Mississippi ("y'all") example.
Bruce Ramsey - M. Rasheed wrote: "It sounds suspiciously like you're still trying to pretend the English translation in your chart means a very specific thing that was already debunked with the 19/60 translations you appear to have already forgot about."
Which do you believe, the Worsh or the Hafs?
Muhammad Rasheed - Bruce wrote: "Even if true, so?"
The Jews are the experts on the Old Testament and they formally said that the DSS is heretical and not from God, so...
...that means the bible changed.
Bruce Ramsey - M. Rasheed wrote: "See the New York ('youse guys') versus Mississippi ('y'all') example"
You think "He fought' changed to 'he was killed,' and 'they disbelieved you' changed to 'they lied to you' is like "youse guys" and "y'all"?
Muhammad Rasheed - Bruce wrote: "No, for the book of Esther is missing."
It has one partial book and a bunch of fragments.
Bruce wrote: "You think 'He fought' changed to 'he was killed,' and 'they disbelieved you' changed to 'they lied to you' is like 'youse guys' and 'y'all?'"
No, why would it be? I used my New York/Mississippi sample only for one particular thing.
There are other examples in the 19/60 sample I showed you that can be as confusing as the one from your chart.
Bruce Ramsey - M. Rasheed wrote: "The Jews are the experts on the Old Testament and they formally said that the DSS is heretical and not from God, so..."
Again, I don't care. The Jews would throw away a WHOLE Torah if they found just ONE word copied wrong in it, so of COURSE they are going to reject the DSS.
M. Rasheed wrote: "...that means the bible changed."
Even if true, so? YOU have no problem with "He fought" changed to "He was killed" and "they disbelieved you" changed to "they lied to you", so... SO!?!?! LOL! 🙂
Muhammad Rasheed - Bruce wrote: "Again, I don't care."
If you don't care about the bible why would I?
Bruce wrote: "The Jews would throw away a WHOLE Torah if they found just ONE word copied wrong in it"
lol Meanwhile, the Old Testament is just as much a fabricated corrupt mess as the NT. I love this demonstration of knowing nothing at all about your own book while you dedicate yourself to deceitful trolling on my religion. What a wasted and silly life.
Bruce Ramsey - M. Rasheed wrote: "It has one partial book and a bunch of fragments."
It has a nearly complete Isiah, which means one can see if chapter 53 has been added latter, can they not?
M. Rasheed wrote: "No, why would it be?"
So the Arabic of the Quran HAS been changed. Yeah, I thought so.
M. Rasheed wrote: "I used my New York/Mississippi sample only for one particular thing."
Right.
M. Rasheed wrote: "There are other examples in the 19/60 sample I showed you that can be as confusing as the one from your chart."
How is it confusing?
Muhammad Rasheed - Bruce wrote: "So the Arabic of the Quran HAS been changed. Yeah, I thought so."
That was even more retarded than you usually are.
Bruce wrote: "How is it confusing?"
People's oddball translation choices can often be confusing, which is why some translations are favored over others because of the clarity discrepancy.
Bruce Ramsey - M. Rasheed wrote: "If you don't care about the bible why would I?"
IF there are changes in the Quran, and you have no problem with them, why should I have problems if the Bible differs from the DSS in a SMALL way?
M. Rasheed wrote: "lol Meanwhile, the Old Testament is just as much a fabricated corrupt mess as the NT."
You mean the "Injeel" I'm to use to "judge there in" of the 'clear signs" (Quran) according to Quran 5:47?
M. Rasheed wrote: "I love this demonstration of knowing nothing at all about your own book while you dedicate yourself to deceitful trolling on my religion. What a wasted and silly life."
My religion doesn't cut off the hands and feet of those that make fun of you.
M. Rasheed wrote: "That was even more retarded than you usually are."
Can you make up your mind?
M. Rasheed wrote: "People's oddball translation choices can often be confusing, which is why some translations are favored over others because of the clarity discrepancy."
it's more than a translation problem when it comes to the Worsh and Hafs.
Muhammad Rasheed - Bruce wrote: "IF there are changes in the Quran"
A hypothetical situation to mean what exactly? There were no changes in the Qur'an, so I don't understand your point. Am I supposed to follow you down into a hypothetical, speculative rabbit hole? For what?
Bruce wrote: "it's more than a translation problem when it comes to the Worsh and Hafs."
You think so, huh? You should let the researchers at Leiden University Centre for Linguistics know about your opinions then.
It's actually not a translation problem at all; it was just a difference in dialect, and the caliph preferred a standardized Qur'an in the prophet's own dialect, which make sense that he would as a bourgeois purist.
Bruce Ramsey - M. Rasheed wrote: "A hypothetical situation to mean what exactly? There were no changes in the Qur'an,"
Then there are no changes in the Bible by such logic.
M. Rasheed wrote: "so I don't understand your point."
IF "they disbelieved you" is the same as "they lied to you" then there is NO change in the Bible.
M. Rasheed wrote: "Am I supposed to follow you down into a hypothetical, speculative rabbit hole? For what?"
Just trying to find out why six perfectly preserved Qurans were ordered burned by Uthman, that's all.
Muhammad Rasheed - Bruce wrote: "And, there are, but, you say 'he fought' changed to 'he was killed' is a dialect thing"
No, I said your chart's example was an English translation thing.
It's trying to force a specific English translation to be the definitive translation chiseled in stone when my 19/60 sample debunked that claim outright.
Bruce wrote: "Then there are no changes in the Bible by such logic."
Despite the claims of your slippery "logic," your own scholars admit the bible has been greatly changed (actually completely fabricated by anonymous authors), so you don't have a point.
Bruce Ramsey - M. Rasheed wrote: "You think so, huh?"
I do.
M. Rasheed wrote: "You should let the researchers at Leiden University Centre for Linguistics know about your opinions then."
If they say otherwise, I will think they are rolling in petro dollars.
M. Rasheed wrote: "It's actually not a translation problem at all; it was just a difference in dialect,"
And "they lied to you" changed to "they disbelieved you" is a dialect problem, true?
M. Rasheed wrote: "and the caliph preferred a standardized Qur'an in the prophet's own dialect, which make sense that he would as a bourgeois purist."
"He fought" is the same as "he was killed"? Hmm. Well, I don't see any change in the Bible, either then.
Muhammad Rasheed - Bruce wrote: "IF 'they disbelieved you' is the same as 'they lied to you' then there is NO change in the Bible."
That would be so only if your fiction about the bible's issues being one of translation error was real. Unfortunately for you, it's not.
Bruce wrote: "I do."
Right. We've already established that you lack integrity and will literally say anything.
Bruce wrote: "If they say otherwise, I will think they are rolling in petro dollars."
lol Their actual initial goal was to officially debunk Islam's claims, but they were forced to eat it.
Bruce wrote: "And 'they lied to you' changed to 'they disbelieved you' is a dialect problem, true?"
No, that's an English translation problem. Assuming, of course, that wherever you got that chart from was real.
Bruce wrote: "Well, I don't see any change in the Bible, either then."
Of course. Lacking integrity is your stock in trade.
Bruce Ramsey - I am now listening to the radio, listening to a scientist view of Noah's Ark.
Muhammad Rasheed - What "scientist?"
Is he being interviewed by Graham Hancock?
Bruce Ramsey - I don't know.
He sounds like a Christian scientist.
Muhammad Rasheed - Oh.
I'll allow it then.
Bruce Ramsey - *thumbs up*
Anyway, I'm going to pray for real this time, despite your efforts to thwart me.
Bruce Ramsey - Go for it. I'll be talking with my GF.
Muhammad Rasheed - I have just over an hour before this window closes.
Bruce Ramsey - *thumbs up*
Bruce Ramsey - M. Rasheed wrote: "No, I said your chart's example was an English translation thing."
Did you see the two Arabics FOR the translation?
M. Rasheed wrote: "It's trying to force a specific English translation to be the definitive translation chiseled in stone when my 19/60 sample debunked that claim outright."
You mean, you believe THEM over the list posted.
M. Rasheed wrote: "Despite the claims of your slippery 'logic,' your own scholars admit the bible has been greatly changed (actually completely fabricated by anonymous authors), so you don't have a point."
Those scholars never heard of the DSS I see.
M. Rasheed wrote: "That would be so only if your fiction about the bible's issues being one of translation error was real. Unfortunately for you, it's not."
I don't see the relation.
M. Rasheed wrote: "Right. We've already established that you lack integrity and will literally say anything."
I can imagine you'd hope so.
M. Rasheed wrote: "lol Their actual initial goal was to officially debunk Islam's claims, but they were forced to eat it."
Got Saudi petro dollars for sure then, it seems.
M. Rasheed wrote: "No, that's an English translation problem. Assuming, of course, that wherever you got that chart from was real."
And if it is?
M. Rasheed wrote: "Of course. Lacking integrity is your stock in trade."
You hope. Anyway, I am now listening to the radio, listening to a scientist view of Noah's Ark.
M. Rasheed wrote: "What 'scientist?' Is he being interviewed by Graham Hancock?"
I don't know. He sounds like a Christian scientist.
M. Rasheed wrote: "Oh. I'll allow it then."
Whew, thank God. 🙂
Muhammad Rasheed - Bruce wrote: "You mean, you believe THEM over the list posted."
No, I posted the 19/60 to show the wide range of English translations from the Arabic, so your' chart's effort to pretend those two translation samples are the definitive English translations is ridiculous. There's many of the 19/60 that don't make sense, too (which I already pointed out earlier, so I don't know where you conjured "you believe THEM over the list posted" from.
Bruce wrote: "Those scholars never heard of the DSS I see."
I don't even know what this is supposed to mean considering the DSS is composed of a partial book and a bunch of fragments.
Bruce wrote: "I don't see the relation."
You're using the "they disbelieved you'/'they lied to you" to piggy-back off my response to force your own non-point about translation errors and claiming the bible should be given a pass because of translation errors while pretending the bible's only problem is translation error discrepancies equivalent to my 19/60 Qur'an example.
Bruce wrote: "I can imagine you'd hope so."
Well, the fact that you deliberately tried to pretend I said "burn the Qur'an" if you recited it in an Irish accent when I said burn you or the fake offense—and I even carried the gag over using other accents—showed your lack of integrity. I suppose your goal was to repeat it so often that I would forget what I actually said and start believing you. This means you are not serious at all and you lack personal integrity.
Bruce wrote: "Got Saudi petro dollars for sure then, it seems."
Feel free to attempt to pick their arguments apart on your own time to see for yourself:
Bruce wrote: "And if it is?"
Then it's an English translation problem and not a dialect problem. You appear to have been distracted while you typed this.
Bruce wrote: "You hope."
I also posted my proof of your own scholar's admitting amongst one another that the bible is fabricated trash and you ignored it and proceeded as if I never posted anything. That level of weak integrity not only also calls into question the quality of your intellect, but it's impossible to respect someone with these traits.
Bruce Ramsey - M. Rasheed wrote: "No, I posted the 19/60 to show the wide range of English translations from the Arabic,"
But, the Arabic of the Worsh is different from the Hafs, creating that list I posted.
M. Rasheed wrote: "so your' chart's effort to pretend those two translation samples are the definitive English translations is ridiculous."
Did you examine the Arabic?
M. Rasheed wrote: "There's many of the 19/60 that don't make sense, too (which I already pointed out earlier, so I don't know where you conjured 'you believe THEM over the list posted' from."
I wasn't talking about the English, I was talking about the Arabic the English versions were derived from.
M. Rasheed wrote: "I don't even know what this is supposed to mean considering the DSS is composed of a partial book and a bunch of fragments."
Did the Isaiah scroll look like fragments to you?
M. Rasheed wrote: "You're using the 'they disbelieved you'/'they lied to you' to piggy-back off my response to force your own non-point about translation errors and claiming the bible should be given a pass because of translation errors while pretending the bible's only problem is translation error discrepancies equivalent to my 19/60 Qur'an example."
Again, did the Arabic ON the list of Worsh Vs Hafs, look the same to you?
M. Rasheed wrote: "Well, the fact that you deliberately tried to pretend I said 'burn the Qur'an' if you recited it in an Irish accent when I said burn you for the fake offense—and I even carried the gag over using other accents—showed your lack of integrity."
You did say burn me, but, I remember when you were trying to make it an accent thing, like reading it in an accent, that was enough to burn the Quran. Well, let's see if that is true:
________________
YOU: "Can you wait an extra four seconds for me to type? wtf? Stop doing that stupid sh*t."
ME: So, if I read the Quran in an Irish accent... BURN that Quran, true? 🙂
🙂
YOU: "YOU should be burned. F*ck the Irish. LOL! 🙂
ME: BURN the Quran if someone reads it in a Mexican accent as well? How about a black accent, know'm say'n?
YOU: Also f*ck Mexico and burn YOU for your blasphemy. Lashes & a fine.
ME: It's blasphemeous to question Islam, isn't it?"
________________
Ok, you are right. You were talking only of burning ME and NOT the Quran, which begs the question... WHY should perfectly preserved Qurans be burned if someone is reading them in an accent/dialect?
M. Rasheed wrote: "I suppose your goal was to repeat it so often that I would forget what I actually said and start believing you. This means you are not serious at all and you lack personal integrity."
No, it means I mis-read you.
I have no idea what that is.
M. Rasheed wrote: "You appear to have been distracted while you typed this."
You hope.
M. Rasheed wrote: "I also posted my proof of your own scholar's admitting amongst one another that the bible is fabricated trash and you ignored it and proceeded as if I never posted anything. That level of weak integrity not only also calls into question the quality of your intellect, but it's impossible to respect someone with these traits."
So, the one who reads the Quran in an Irish accent/dialect needs to be burned, NOT the Quran. Yet, Uthamn burned Qurans because someone was READING them in an accent/dilect, true?
Muhammad Rasheed - Bruce wrote: "But, the Arabic of the Worsh is different from the Hafs, creating that list I posted."
It's a dialect difference, not a message difference. The seeming difference in the English translation is what the 19/60 sample debunks.
Bruce wrote: "Did you examine the Arabic?"
Yes. That's the point of the "youse guys/y'all" analogy in written dialect differences that don't change the actual message.
Bruce wrote: "Did the Isaiah scroll look like fragments to you?"
So, when I said the DSS is composed of a partial book and several fragments, and you asked if the partial book looked like a fragment to me, was this an example of you wanting me to think you were stupid as a tactic of your long-game?
Bruce wrote: "Again, did the Arabic ON the list of Worsh Vs Hafs, look the same to you?"
Likewise, "youse guys" looks different from "y'all" but they mean the same thing, true?
Bruce wrote: "You did say burn me"
Finally, we managed to get an eyedropper drip of integrity out of you for once. Or did you only do that as the setup for another lie in the classic grifter model? I don't wanna get myself TOO excited since the bar is so low for you.
Bruce wrote: "but, I remember when you were trying to make it an accent thing, like reading it in an accent, that was enough to burn the Quran."
A different accent does come with a different dialect, it turns out. That was sufficient for my gag to work.
Bruce wrote: "WHY should perfectly preserved Qurans be burned if someone is reading them in an accent/dialect?"
The caliph's goal was to standardize the Qur'an in the prophet's own hejazi dialect, and once the publishing chores were completed he got rid of the dialectical variants so they wouldn't cause confusion and serve to sabotage his efforts of formal standardization of one particular dialect.
Bruce wrote: "No, it means I mis-read you."
No, it's a slimeball sophistry tactic of the troll. #Unserious
Bruce wrote: "I have no idea what that is."
You admit you have no idea what it is, but you are also sure the secular, anti-Islamic academic institution took a bribe to announce that Islam's claims about the Qur'an are legit. #Unserious
Bruce Ramsey - M. Rasheed wrote: "It's a dialect difference, not a message difference."
"They lied" is the same message as "they disbelieved"?
M. Rasheed wrote: "The seeming difference in the English translation is what the 19/60 sample debunks."
Did you see the Arabic of the Worsh and the Hafs? Did it look the same?
M. Rasheed wrote: "Yes. That's the point of the 'youse guys/y'all' analogy in written dialect differences that don't change the actual message."
"They deceived" to "they tried to deceive" is like "youse guys vs y'all"? How so?
M. Rasheed wrote: "So, when I said the DSS is composed of a partial book and several fragments, and you asked if the partial book looked like a fragment to me, was this an example of you wanting me to think you were stupid as a tactic of your long-game?"
How does such a question make me sound stupid? Again, does the Isaiah scroll look like a fragment to you?
M. Rasheed wrote: "Likewise, 'youse guys' looks different from 'y'all' but they mean the same thing, true?"
And "he fought" is the same as "he was killed"? You SURE about that?
M. Rasheed wrote: "Finally, we managed to get an eyedropper drip of integrity out of you for once. Or did you only do that as the setup for another lie in the classic grifter model?"
A faulty memory is a deliberate lie?
M. Rasheed wrote: "I don't wanna get myself TOO excited since the bar is so low for you."
Meaning?
M. Rasheed wrote: "A different accent does come with a different dialect, it turns out. That was sufficient for my gag to work."
So, a Quran should be burned over something like "youse guys" changed to "y'all"? But, does match in meaning "he fought" changed to "he was killed"?
M. Rasheed wrote: "The caliph's goal was to standardize the Qur'an in the prophet's own hejazi dialect, and once the publishing chores were completed he got rid of the dialectical variants so they wouldn't cause confusion and serve to sabotage his efforts of formal standardization of one particular dialect."
If the Hafs is the same as the Worsh, to the point where "he fought" is the same message as "he was killed", sounds like those dialetical changes were HUGE, and THAT is why Uthman ordered them burned.
M. Rasheed wrote: "No, it's a slimeball sophistry tactic of the troll. #Unserious"
Hey, I misread you. If you think that is "slimeball", oh well.
M. Rasheed wrote: "You admit you have no idea what it is, but you are also sure the secular, anti-Islamic academic institution took a bribe to announce that Islam's claims about the Qur'an are legit. #Unserious"
Most people have their price.
Muhammad Rasheed - Bruce wrote: "'They deceived' to 'they tried to deceive' is like 'youse guys' vs 'y'all?' How so?"
No. lol
• ['They deceived' to 'they tried to deceive'] represents the sample of poor/wonky English translation
• ['Youse guys' vs 'y'all'] represents the pronunciation & spelling differences between different dialect-type expressions of the same meaning within the same language
Bruce wrote: "How does such a question make me sound stupid?"
Because you are acting like the partial book is the fragment when I said that the DSS is composed of a partial book and some fragments. Either make the effort to focus, ask me what I actually meant if you are really confused, or stop being stupid.
Bruce wrote: "And 'he fought' is the same as 'he was killed?' You SURE about that?"
I'm sure it's an example of poor English translation, of which there are plenty of others demonstrated in the 19/60 sample I provided. The obvious lesson is that Arabic can be very complex, and the terms can be translated into English in many ways of varying levels of accuracy.
Bruce wrote: "A faulty memory is a deliberate lie?"
I posted the screenshot of the original dialog the other day and you STILL doubled-down on being a damned fool. "Faulty memory" my ass.
Bruce wrote: "Meaning?"
You're a lying, grifting damned fool with zero integrity. What other impression do you think you're leaving right now?
Bruce wrote: "So, a Quran should be burned over something like 'youse guys' changed to 'y'all?' But, does match in meaning 'he fought' changed to 'he was killed?'"
Yes, because the caliph had yet to establish the standardized Qur'an dialect in the land, so any other variant would only cause the same type of dumbass confusion you are currently displaying over the topic. Now I agree with Uthman more than ever (and I was already on board) after having this stupid-assed back-n-forth with you.
Bruce wrote: "Hey, I misread you."
You're lying.
Bruce wrote: "Most people have their price."
Who's paying you to be stupid?
Bruce Ramsey - M. Rasheed wrote: "No. lol"
NO!?!? Well?
M. Rasheed wrote: "• ['They deceived' to 'they tried to deceive'] represents the sample of poor/wonky English translation"
Did the Arabic in the Worsh match the Arabic in the Hafs to create such "wonky"? After all, it's the Arabic that is important here.
M. Rasheed wrote: "• ['Youse guys' vs 'y'all'] represents the difference between different dialect-type expressions using the same meaning"
Again, look at the Arabic that would create "wonky". Does it look the same to you?
M. Rasheed wrote: "Because you are acting like the partial book is the fragment when I said that the DSS is composed of a partial book and some fragments. Either make the effort to focus, ask me what I actually meant if you are really confused, or stop being stupid."
I have seen the so called "fragments". Apparently, there was enough to see very little change in meaning over the years.
M. Rasheed wrote: "I'm sure it's an example of poor English translation, of which there are plenty of others demonstrated in the 19/60 sample I provided."
Are you saying that the Arabic in both produce the same meaning, it's just a mistake in the English? Again, look at the Arabic and see if they both look identical, OK?
M. Rasheed wrote: "The obvious lesson is that Arabic can be very complex, and the terms can be translated into English in many ways of varying levels of accuracy."
Again, DOES the Arabic in the Worsh match the Hafs? Check it, please.
M. Rasheed wrote: "I posted the screenshot of the original dialog the other day and you STILL doubled-down on being a damned fool. 'Faulty memory' my ass."
Hey, I remembered it wrong. I'm not a young guy, you know.
M. Rasheed wrote: "You're a lying, grifting damned fool with zero integrity. What other impression do you think you're leaving right now?"
How was I lying?
M. Rasheed wrote: "Yes, because the caliph had yet to establish the standardized Qur'an dialect in the land,"
"He fought" MATCHED "he was killed"!?!? REALLY!?!?
M. Rasheed wrote: "so any other variant would only cause the same type of dumbass confusion you are currently displaying over the topic."
"He fought" MATCHED "he was killed"!?!? REALLY!?!?
M. Rasheed wrote: "Now I agree with Uthman more than ever (and I was already on board) after having this stupid-assed back-n-forth with you."
WHY, if there is NO difference between "He fought" MATCHING "he was killed"!?!? Can you make up your mind?
M. Rasheed wrote: "You're lying."
No, I misread you. I'm NOT doing taqiyya because there is NO Quran 3:28 and 16:106 in the "Injeel" that I'm aware of.
M. Rasheed wrote: "Who's paying you to be stupid?"
Who's paying you to say "he was killed" is the same as "he fought", yet, is enough a change for Uthman to burn the Quran? Again, can you make up your mind?
Muhammad Rasheed - Bruce wrote: "Apparently, there was enough to see very little change in meaning over the years."
That's another damned lie since the Jews reject the DSS as heretical.
Bruce wrote: "Hey, I remembered it wrong."
Over an item you don't feel is worth playing the same games with for some reason.
Bruce wrote: "No, I misread you."
No, you're lying.
Bruce wrote: "Who's paying you to say 'he was killed' is the same as 'he fought'"
Where did I say that at?
Bruce Ramsey - M. Rasheed wrote: "That's another damned lie since the Jews reject the DSS as heretical."
So? They rejected the whole Torah if there was a spelling mistake. That's not a good argument to say the whole DSS doesn't prove anything.
M. Rasheed wrote: "Over an item you don't feel is worth playing the same games with for some reason."
Hey, I checked it out, I found out that I had remembered it wrong, and, I was NOT afraid to show this mistake, now, WAS I? Would you have done the same?
M. Rasheed wrote: "No, you're lying."
I can imagine you hope I was.
M. Rasheed wrote: "Where did I say that at?"
I mean, the ARBIC is the same, and the ENGLISH is wrong, right? 🙂
By the way, do THESE look like fragments? Pretty big fragments, if you ask me. Enough to let you know how well or poorly the meaning matches with my Old Testament, don't you think?
Muhammad Rasheed - Bruce wrote: "So? They rejected the whole Torah if there was a spelling mistake."
That's your second time saying that, I believe. Show me your evidence, please.
Bruce wrote: "Would you have done the same?"
I fix my typos in the Edit tool. lol
Bruce wrote: "I can imagine you hope I was."
Lying & ducking direct questions appears to be all you know how to do in religious arguments. It's sad, really.
Bruce wrote: "I mean, the ARBIC is the same, and the ENGLISH is wrong, right? 🙂"
You're stumbling over your own foolishness. I can't even tell what you are trying to say. 🙄
Bruce wrote: "don't you think?"
I think the fact that the Jews reject it as heretical writings renders your non-point moot before you even posted it.
Bruce Ramsey - M. Rasheed wrote: "That's your second time saying that, I believe. Show me your evidence, please."
And, what would you say if I presented it? A lie from the Jews? A lie from the Christians? Which? I mean, YOU accuse me of lying, so, I don't think you will be stopping that any time soon.
M. Rasheed wrote: "I fix my typos in the Edit tool. lol"
I'll take that as a no.
M. Rasheed wrote: "Lying & ducking direct questions appears to be all you know how to do in religious arguments. It's sad, really."
And I'll say that is taqiyya (lying for Allah) on YOUR part. For clearly, you are desperate to label me a liar, even though your religion allows YOU to lie (Quran 3:28 and 16:106).
M. Rasheed wrote: "You're stumbling over your own foolishness. I can't even tell what you are trying to say. 🙄"
IS the Arabic of the Worsh the same as the Hafs when with the "he fought" and the "he was killed"? Check out the Arabic and see if it's the same. Are the diacritical marks the same?
M. Rasheed wrote: "I think the fact that the Jews reject it as heretical writings renders your non-point moot before you even posted it."
And I don't care if they do, for I've studied the DSS for over 50 years and KNOW that what ever changes over the centuries is hardly anything.
By the way, it was the DSS that helped get me out of Mormonism, for Joseph Smith teaches that the Bible has been changed and altered like the Muslims claim.
Muhammad Rasheed - Bruce wrote: "And, what would you say if I presented it?"
That would depend on the quality of the evidence, innit?
Bruce wrote: "I mean, YOU accuse me of lying"
Stop doing it and I promise to quit.
Bruce wrote: "I'll take that as a no."
lol Try me then.
Bruce wrote: "even though your religion allows YOU to lie (Quran 3:28 and 16:106)."
I guess I'm magically supposed to read your mind and understand your twisted & consistently cockeyed interpretation of the verses, huh?
The verses you referenced say that I'm allowed to lie under certain strict conditions. Since those conditions have nothing at all to do with our relationship, I fail to see why you even brought that topic up. Naturally, I'm forced to conclude that you're just stupid again.
Bruce wrote: "IS the Arabic of the Worsh the same as the Hafs when with the 'he fought' and the 'he was killed?' Check out the Arabic and see if it's the same. Are the diacritical marks the same?"
For the one million and seventh time, no, they are not the same. How could they be when they are two different dialects saying the same thing? One represents "youse guys" and the other represents "y'all." The hejazi dialect would say "you lot." Uthman preferred "you lot," of course, and worked to standardize that version. My patience isn't limitless; there's only so many ways I can explain this. I'm willing to be generous and assume you just consumed too many hard drugs during your chest hair years and it's rendered you stupid in your older ages. That's the best I can do.
Bruce wrote: "And I don't care if they do, for I've studied the DSS for over 50 years"
lol I noticed you never even tried to post the evidence I asked for, but you want me to actually accept your word at face value on something after your lack of integrity performance in this thread. Be reasonable, please.
It's also possible that He had them facing towards the tent that held the Ark of the Covenant.
Bruce wrote: "And Moses talks of Muhammad?"
Deut. 18:18 is God talking to Moses (pbuh) about Muhammad (pbuh). The original Torah was like the Qur'an and was composed of God doing all the talking.
lol It tickles me every time I see that phylactery thing. Why are they wearing a miniature Ka'aba replica tied to their foreheads over the point of prostration? hahahaha
Knowing them, that was how they invented getting out of performing the difficult (and very expensive 😬) Hajj ritual. Note how the Beta Israel Jews of Ethiopia were also big on ritual replicas of God's holy relics. 🤔😏
O Pharaoh! Let My people go so that they may circle My House in the desert and worship Me! Release them that they may escape pyramid-elitist idolatry to bow down to cube-monotheism that the Creator Supreme alone may be Glorified!
The phylacteries contain 4 passages of scripture:
1. Exodus 13:1-10
2. Exodus 13:11-16
3. Deuteronomy 6:4-9
4. Deuteronomy 11:13-21
Bruce Ramsey - M. Rasheed wrote: "The quality would be determined by whether it objectively proved the point you were trying to make, instead of requiring mostly sophistry tricks. The way you're conspicuously ignoring the life-threatening conditions in those Qur'an verses that allow a Muslim to lie under strictly defined circumstances, while pretending it's allowing us to lie over anything at all carte blanche."
"Under compulsion/duress" is what it says, not "kufr put gun to my head". Even IF it WAS a threat to life, the fact that you can deny Allah to save your cowardly life means your life becomes more important than your faith in Allah, and, it opens the door to Bilal saying "ONE!" for nothing when he was being tortured. When Bilal heard of Quran 16:106, he probably said, "Dayum! I was tortured for NOTHING! I coulda said MANY! Know'm say'n?" By the way, there is NO threat to you in Quran 3:28 from non-Muslims. The threat comes from Allah SHOULD you take me as your friend. Thus, you have to just ACT like my friend/ally/protector, but the active word is "friend". I find that creeeeeeeepy, how about you?
M. Rasheed wrote: "Every time you type."
That's taqiyya (lying for Allah) on YOUR part right there. Clearly, I don't lie and haven't lied. YOU just try to make a LOT of hay out of my misreading of what should be burned when reciting the Quran in an Irish accent.
M. Rasheed wrote: "Notice how you are acting in this thread, and how Jews and Christians act in that debate chat group we met in."
I don't remember. Remind me, please. I mean, I meet a LOT of Muslims on the net, to the point where it all blends together.
M. Rasheed wrote: "Oh, I genuinely think you're stupid. Do you worship Jesus (pbuh) as a divine entity and believe that the One God requires the human blood sacrifice of an innocent man to forgive sin?"
I don't know about the stupid part, but, you are right on the latter, for the "clear signs" (Quran) says "NO bearer of burdens (sins) shall bear the burden (sin) of another", and ALL prophets in Islam are sinless EVEN if they pull a part old ladies complaining about them slaughtering there village, kindling fires on the chest of Jews to find out where they have their money (think Kinana) OR, porking 9-year-olds. Guess what? Jesus, in Islam, is a prophet, thus is sinless (burdenless), so he CAN bear our burdens (sins) to "clear book/signs" (Quran) standards.
M. Rasheed wrote: "Obviously, they didn't get burned because they were missed, or the owners hid them, or whatever else."
And THAT is why we have the Worsh as well as the Hafs?
M. Rasheed wrote: "He would have burned them if he would have found them since that was the protocol. This doesn't appear to be a serious point at all."
Apparently not, since "they disbelieved believe you" is the same as "they lied" to you.
M. Rasheed wrote: "No, those are English translations of the Arabic dialect differences for the same term."
And the Arabic to cause the sentences? Did you see them? What do you think of them?
M. Rasheed wrote: "He didn't burn these because his team didn't find them. I think this new angle is even stupider than the original point you were trying to make."
But he WANTED to burn them, DIDN'T he? 🙂
M. Rasheed wrote: "The caliph's team didn't burn them because they didn't find them. If they had found them they would have burned them."
EVEN though it's just a DIALIC thang where "they lied" is the same as "they disbelieved you"!?!? 🙂
M. Rasheed wrote: "Do you understand what 'standardize a single Qur'an dialect' means,"
I mean ONLY having it as "they lied" (even though it's the same as "they disbelieved you", true? 🙂
M. Rasheed wrote: "you retard?"
Of course I'm retarded. If I WASN'T retarded, I'd know that a ubiquitous Satan DOES spend the night in ALL our noses, thus, the need to wash Satan out, even though Satan's farts from hearing the azan don't stink NOR have any effect on ability to breathe.
M. Rasheed wrote: "I'll admit I'm now intrigued at the idea that you think I was lying when I concluded you were stupid."
No, I believe you are right, I'm NOT doing taqiyya here. IF I was smart and NOT retarded, I'd know that I SHOULD enter the bathroom with my left foot to keep Satan from playing with my butt, even though I can't feel Satan playing with my butt. 🙂
M. Rasheed wrote: "Is it actually possible that you really think this line of questioning is a demonstration of your intellect, and not you just playing clownish games trying to irritate me into Blocking you? Explain, please."
Well, I don't know. I AM super stupid. I mean, IF I was a genius, I'd KNOW that, SOMEWHERE, on this PLANET, a GIANT molten metal wall WAS, as the "clear book" (Quran) says, holding back Gog and Magog people from attacking idiots SOOOOOO much LIKE me, that they can "hardly understand human speech" (LIKE the "clear book/signs" (Quran) SAYS! AND... AND...(according to Mo), IF the "hour" really IS near, these Gog and Magog people (with ears so huge they can use as bedding) are to outnumber Muslims a 1000 to one, meaning, there are 200 TRILLION of these monster ears BEHIND that giant molten metal wall, AND, if I WASN'T retarded, I'd BELIEVE this, I taqiyya you NOT!!! 🙂
M. Rasheed wrote: "You didn't 'study' sh*t, you dumbass. 'Stop the cap,' as the kids say."
Yeah, you're right. You aren't doing taqiyya. I AM a "dumb ass". For if I was a genius, I'd know that, at the end of the world, a giant monster called the "Dabbah" would come up out of the earth and be SOOOO huge, it would have TWELVE-cubit lengths BETWEEN each JOINT, yet, with its camel goes (Mo says it has the legs of a camel, so, I'm guessing it's hand are camel toes), well, it will be able to CATCH you WITHOUT crushing you, and, hit you in the face with the staff of Musa to turn you white for "the garden" and BLACK for "the fire". But even though turning you either white OR black, it will STILL, WITH its camel toes that are probably as big as a city block, be able to write "Kufr" BETWEEN your BLACK eyes and "BELIEVER" BETWEEN your, what? BLUE eyes? Well, it will be able to change you colors AND write on you even THOUGH such a huge size, and, you know? IF I wasn't such a "dumb ass", hey, I'd BELIEVE it, don't cha thank? 🙂
M. Rasheed wrote: "Who do you think you are supposed to be fooling? lol"
Certainly not fooling YOU. You are such a genius, I taqiyya you NOT!!! 🙂
M. Rasheed wrote: "That was probably your first time even looking at those DSS images when you posted them here."
Oh, ya GOT me!!! 🙁
M. Rasheed wrote: "Whatever, dude. You didn't have a problem posting that ignorant 'christian prince' nonsense,"
How was it "nonsense"? 🙂
M. Rasheed wrote: "but I'm supposed to believe you have compelling evidence for something and suddenly you're too shy to share it? Get the f*ck out of here..."
Well, I really don't care if you believe me or not about Jews throwing away Torahs if they found a spelling mistake in it. Don't care. NOR do I care that they'd wash themselves if they came upon the word YHVH in the translation.
M. Rasheed wrote: "You're a lying clown. That's all. And you're stupid as f*ck."
Oh, I SURE am. Did you know that I think we should do a "draw the Dabbah" contest? Check this out:
[LINK] another one of Bruce's vids | YouTube
Muhammad Rasheed - Bruce wrote: "'Under compulsion/duress' is what it says, not 'kufr put gun to my head.'"
You're not helping your cause of proving you're not stupid, dude. How hard would it have been to take an extra few seconds to look up "under compulsion" since you didn't know what it meant? Tsk.
Should I even bother to read the rest of this bs you posted? I'll admit I'm not motivated to do so at all since reading your commitment to stupidity is giving me a headache.
Bruce Ramsey - M. Rasheed wrote: "Since their community wasn't set up yet at the time the Torah was revealed on Mt. Sinai, why wouldn't God have had the children of Israel face towards His House in Mecca?"
And I bet you feel the REAL Torah (changed by the time of the DSS) HAD them facing the Kaaba, true?
M. Rasheed wrote: "It would help to explain this mysterious Jewish ritual:"
Which is?
M. Rasheed wrote: "It's also possible that He had them facing towards the tent that held the Ark of the Covenant."
With their patootis in the air, or, just facing it?
M. Rasheed wrote: "Deut. 18:18 is God talking to Moses (pbuh) about Muhammad (pbuh)."
Did you know that Deuteronomy says it's not how many prophecies you get right to make you a prophet, it's the one you don't get right that makes you "not to be feared" (i.e. you are a false prophet)? Question. ARE we BLOOD clots for FORTY-days as embryos? ARE meteors burning up in the earth's atmosphere LITERAL stars "used as missiles against the Satan"? DOES the sun have a place of setting (i.e. a muddy spring)? DOED the sun need to ask/seek the permission to RISE again? IS the sky "without cracks" BUT can crack and FALL on us if not held up by Allah?
M. Rasheed wrote: "The original Torah was like the Qur'an and was composed of God doing all the talking. lol It tickles me every time I see that phylactery thing. Why are they wearing a miniature Ka'aba replica tied to their foreheads over the point of prostration? hahahaha"
It DOES look like a little Kaaba, that is for sure.
M. Rasheed wrote: "Knowing them, that was how they invented getting out of performing the difficult (and very expensive 😬) Hajj ritual. Note how the Beta Israel Jews of Ethiopia were also big on ritual replicas of God's holy relics. 🤔😏"
They might have the ark, I've heard.
M. Rasheed wrote: "O Pharaoh! Let My people go so that they may circle My House in the desert and worship Me!"
I bet you're right, and, I'm not taqiyya-ing here.
Well, I'm going to try to go to bed again. You have a nice day. Goodnight.
Muhammad Rasheed - Bruce wrote: "Even IF it WAS a threat to life, the fact that you can deny Allah to save your cowardly life means your life becomes more important than your faith in Allah"
The One God is literally giving us permission to do it to prevent us from being killed. Obviously, Bilal's example was better, and if he would have been killed he would have went to paradise as a martyr—there are different tier-levels in heaven for a reason.
Bruce Ramsey - Oh, one more thing. Don't read what I wrote. Just ignore it. It's a real kick in the upraised Sunni patooti in prostration on a prayer rug facing the pagan Arab black stone.
Muhammad Rasheed - Bruce wrote: "And I bet you feel the REAL Torah (changed by the time of the DSS)"
The real (original) Torah is housed within the Ark of the Covenant, along with other relics like the Rod of Aaron (pbuh), samples of manna, etc. For most of the children of Israel's history the Torah was an oral song passed down through the generations.
Bruce wrote: "HAD them facing the Kaaba, true?"
Why wouldn't He have had them facing the Temple of Solomon (pbuh) where the Ark was housed once they were established as their own community?
Bruce wrote: "It's a real kick in the upraised Sunni patooti"
1.) I'll assume you're still mentioning "sunni" to me out of mere habit, since that doesn't mean anything to me, remember? I reject all sects.
2.) You haven't been a challenge for me even once. Get your game up and get serious; your bs sophistry tricks are weak and designed around a lesser opponent.
Bruce wrote: "the pagan Arab black stone."
The Black Stone isn't 'pagan.' lol It's originally a relic and sign of God, an actual remnant from the comet impact that initiated the Great Flood near extinction event. The pagans usurped the House and the Stone at some point, but God's prophet cleansed them when the believers retook Mecca and dedicated it to the worship of Allah once again.
Bruce wrote: "With their patootis in the air, or, just facing it?"
Bowing down on their faces the way God's prophets taught them.
Keep making fun of it, too, in your willful ignorance, so you can find yourself UNDER hell.
Bruce wrote: "Did you know that Deuteronomy says it's not how many prophecies you get right to make you a prophet"
That does sound exactly like some fabricated nonsense the wayward people of the book would add to the text to try to fix Paul's numerous failed prophecies.
Bruce wrote: "By the way, there is NO threat to you in Quran 3:28 from non-Muslims."
Meanwhile, at the time of this revelation, they were literally at war with the three Jewish tribes who broke the Medina covenant and sided with the pagan Meccans against them. 🙄
Bruce wrote: "Clearly, I don't lie and haven't lied."
Clearly, you lie continuously and have ZERO integrity. And on that note, I'm going to take your advice and not read the rest of this post.
Bruce Ramsey - M. Rasheed wrote: "The One God is literally giving us permission to do it to prevent us from being killed."
There is no mention of being killed if you don't lie, it just says "under compulsion", or "forced" (according to the Sunni website "islamawakened"). But HOW forced?
M. Rasheed wrote: "Obviously, Bilal's example was better, and if he would have been killed, he would have went to paradise as a martyr—there are different tier-levels in heaven for a reason."
Being crushed with stones is better for telling the truth? So, if you were Bilal, you'd ignore Quran 16:106 and keep on yelling out "ONE!" no matter HOW painful, true?
M. Rasheed wrote: "You're not helping your cause of proving you're not stupid, dude."
Oh man, you are just soooo MEAN!!!!
M. Rasheed wrote: "How hard would it have been to take an extra few seconds to look up 'under compulsion' since you didn't know what it meant? Tsk."
I think We all know what "duress" and "compulsion" means. It means "forced" when you do to the Sunni Muslim website "islamawakened". The question is... HOW much is Allah willing you to go through in order for you to deny that Allah doesn't exist? What if you are an extreme coward and REALLY love THIS life MORE than the thought of getting constant sex and sloth in the afterlife? Doesn't Quran 16:107 scold you for that, thus, making 16:106 of noneffect?
M. Rasheed wrote: "Should I even bother to read the rest of this bs you posted?"
I don't care if you do. It was fun writing, though. 🙂
M. Rasheed wrote: "I'll admit I'm not motivated to do so at all since reading your commitment to stupidity is giving me a headache."
You mean, making you question your reality.
M. Rasheed wrote: "The real (original) Torah is housed within the Ark of the Covenant, along with other relics like the Rod of Aaron (pbuh), samples of manna, etc. For most of the children of Israel's history the Torah was an oral song passed down through the generations."
AND all the patooti in the air with the bowing down to the Kaaba was forgotten about by the time they DID decide to write it down, true? 🙂
M. Rasheed wrote: "Why wouldn't He have had them facing the Temple of Solomon (pbuh) where the Ark was housed once they were established as their own community?"
But... but... didn't ADAM build the KAABA!?!? HOW did the ARK become more important than the KAABA!! HOW!?!?!
M. Rasheed wrote: "1.) I'll assume you're still mentioning 'sunni' to me out of mere habit, since that doesn't mean anything to me, remember? I reject all sects."
And I bet you reject most hadiths as well. Muslims cherry pick from the hadith to the point where "sahih" no longer means "sound/authentic" but "a hadith I don't find embarrassing about my beloved Mr. (pbuh) who got me bowing down to the black stone even though pagan Arabs worshipped it---GOT me bowing down JUST because Muhammad KISSED it! But, hey, I don't worship Muhammad just because his kissing something worshipped by pagan Arabs now has me bowing down to it five times a day! NOPE, that is NOT worship of Mr. (pbuh) AT all!" 🙂
M. Rasheed wrote: "2.) You haven't been a challenge for me even once."
YES I HAVBE!!! YES I HAVE!!! I HAVE! I... HAAAAAAAAAVE!!!! 🙂
M. Rasheed wrote: "Get your game up and get serious; your bs sophistry tricks are weak and designed around a lesser opponent."
Man, you are just sooooooo MEAN!!!! 🙂
M. Rasheed wrote: "The Black Stone isn't 'pagan.'"
It was worshipped by pagans. Do you think it was always black? No, in SUNNI Islam, at least, it USED to be white until the PAGANS turned it BLACK by, apparently, absorbing their sins. After all, it was black by the time Mo kissed such a stone that was WORSHIPPED by the pagans. Muslims worship Mo SOOOOO much, that they bow DOWN to something WORSHIPPED by pagans. Thus, this is PROOF that Muhammad is now being WORSHIPPED by MUSLIMS!!! How can it NOT be that way? THINK, please. MUSLIMS WORSHIP Muhammad because he KISSED a stone WORSHIPPED by pagan Arabs JUST BECAUSE HE KISSED IT!!!! LOL!!! WAKE UP, please! WAKE UP!!!
M. Rasheed wrote: "lol It's originally a relic and sign of God,"
And it was worshipped by pagan Arabs, supposedly.
M. Rasheed wrote: "an actual remnant from the comet impact that initiated the Great Flood near-extinction event."
OR since Abu Tahir was able to break it into pieces, OR... it was a dirt clod made of sheep milk. After all, the hadith says you USED to worship stones... OR... if you couldn't FIND one, the "we would milk a sheep over soil and MAKE one"!!! I'll post that information at the end of this, OK?
M. Rasheed wrote: "The pagans usurped the House and the Stone at some point, but God's prophet cleansed them when the believers retook Mecca and dedicated it to the worship of Allah once again."
And they ended up worshipping the black stone that Muhammad would kiss, making YOU worship MUHAMMAD by bowing DOWN to that stone he kissed. Again, if THAT is not worship of Muhammad, WHAT is? THINK, please.
M. Rasheed wrote: "Bowing down on their faces the way God's prophets taught them."
Does it say their knees were bent to produce the patooti in the air effect?
M. Rasheed wrote: "Keep making fun of it, too, in your willful ignorance, so you can find yourself UNDER hell."
Well, better than BEING in hell, after all, hot air rises.
M. Rasheed wrote: "That does sound exactly like some fabricated nonsense the wayward people of the book would add to the text to try to fix Paul's numerous failed prophecies."
Numerous? Hmm. Want me to post from Deuteronomy about how a prophet is "not to be feared"?
M. Rasheed wrote: "Meanwhile, at the time of this revelation, they were literally at war with the three Jewish tribes who broke the Medina covenant and sided with the pagan Meccans against them. 🙄"
Oh, so Quran 3:28 is to no longer be followed? Really? You CAN be my friend? Was Quran 5:51 only for that time as well? THINK, please.
M. Rasheed wrote: "Clearly, you lie continuously and have ZERO integrity."
Where have I lied? You can read into my mis-reading the accent thing and CLAIM I lied, but, really, WHERE have I lied, sir? Seriously.
M. Rasheed wrote: "And on that note, I'm going to take your advice and not read the rest of this post."
Well, you better NOT read it, for I was wrong about it being a hard, swift kick in the upraised Sunni patooti in prostration on a prayer rug facing the pagan Arab black stone. I mean, t'was more of a PUNT to the Sunni patooti in prostration, sending it up through the goal post of theological polemics. 🙂
Muhammad Rasheed - Bruce wrote: "How can it not be that way?"
Because God is literally giving you permission to do it to save your life. That's a Mercy. If the All-Powerful One God is giving you permission, then what is this dumbass pushback you are providing??? #Stupid
Bruce wrote: "There is no mention of being killed if you don't lie"
Why would it have to be? What does it normally mean to be forced to do something? smh
Bruce wrote: "it just says 'under compulsion,' or 'forced'"
Yeah? lol
Bruce wrote: "(according to the Sunni website 'islamawakened')."
You mean the same site that's written at the top of the 19/60 thing I posted? That one? 🙄
Bruce wrote: "But HOW forced?"
How are people usually forced?
Bruce wrote: "Being crushed with stones is better for telling the truth? So, if you were Bilal, you'd ignore Quran 16:106 and keep on yelling out 'ONE!' no matter HOW painful, true?"
God Judges us based on our righteousness. Those who are more righteous will have a higher rank in paradise. The martyrs will be at the highest rank with the prophets.
Bruce wrote: "I think We all know what 'duress' and 'compulsion' means."
So, according to you, it couldn't have meant "forced" to the 7th century Arabs because the bad guys didn't have any guns to put to their heads, true?
Bruce wrote: "The question is... HOW much is Allah willing you to go through"
God gave permission to lie during extreme circumstances in order to save your life, so your question doesn't makes sense, since it appears to ignore that part to make [yet another ignorant] non-point.
Bruce wrote: "I don't care if you do. It was fun writing, though. 🙂"
I'll admit I'm a sucker for lengthy back-n-forths on social media. 😞
Bruce wrote: "You mean, making you question your reality."
Not once, clown. At best you provide material that I can use in my editorial cartoon work, although I don't do too many of those on the religious side. Other than that, I enjoy clever banter with game opponents.
By now, you recognize I see through your knowledge gap deficiencies and have no respect for your sophistry tricks, so how you can fix your mouth to think anything you've typed has made me "question reality" is beyond me. You're definitely not that guy. Find a higher-quality guru. That might help.
Bruce wrote: "AND all the patooti in the air with the bowing down to the Kaaba was forgotten about by the time they DID decide to write it down, true? 🙂"
If God had them do it at all, it was probably only temporary until they got their own community established in the promised land. Similar to God having the early Muslims temporarily face Jerusalem when they prayed until it was time to shift to their own community focus.
Bruce wrote: "But... but... didn't ADAM build the KAABA!?!? HOW did the ARK become more important than the KAABA!! HOW!?!?!"
I don't know where you're getting "more important" from. Why wouldn't all of God's holy relicts be equally important as signs of His Glory? 🤔 Is this a Mormon thing?
The Ka'aba was rebuilt numerous times over the ages. Abraham (pbuh) and Ishmael (pbuh) "raising the foundation" was one of those times. Since the children of Israel associated the House with Ishmael (probably), that may be why God didn't decide to test them by facing it during prayer, since they obviously would have failed through pure, over-the-top petty hatred of their brethren nation, whom they still despise.
Bruce wrote: "And I bet you reject most hadiths as well."
I can't pretend to have read all of the hadith, so "most" would be inaccurate. There's literally hundreds and hundreds of thousands of collected hadith, and most of them haven't been translated into English yet. I do reject the ones that don't align to the Qur'an—which I've already explained 50x to you by now, of course.
Bruce wrote: "Muslims cherry pick from the hadith to the point where 'sahih' no longer means 'sound/authentic'"
*shrug*
"Sahih" references the quality check method developed by the scholar to evaluate the trustworthiness of the interviewees he collected the hadith from. It doesn't evaluate the quality of the ahadith they recited though. That's where critics like you fail — you only believe you know what you are talking about, and worse, you try to force Muslims to treat the Qur'an and hadith in the same ignorant and irresponsible way you treat the irredeemably corrupt bible.
Bruce wrote: "but 'a hadith I don't find embarrassing about my beloved Mr. (pbuh) who got me bowing down to the black stone even though pagan Arabs worshipped it---GOT me bowing down JUST because Muhammad KISSED it! But, hey, I don't worship Muhammad just because his kissing something worshipped by pagan Arabs now has me bowing down to it five times a day! NOPE, that is NOT worship of Mr. (pbuh) AT all!' 🙂"
This is a confused jumbled mess. The item that stands out most is the idea that we "worship Muhammad" because he kissed the Black Stone. Can you walk me through the mental journey you took to get there? I don't think like a hellbound retard and can't puzzle out how you came to that genuinely weird conclusion.
The One God confirmed that Muhammad (pbuh) is His anointed prophet. So, when the prophet broke all the idols in the Ka'aba, but kept the Black Stone, what does that mean? It obviously means that even though the pagans came along and worshiped it, the Black Stone was not originally a pagan idol, but was a sign and relict of the One God. The prophet Muhammad's treatment legitimized it.
Of course, I don't expect the hostile, biased outsider to agree, I'm just explaining what it means from the Islamic perspective.
Bruce wrote: "No, in SUNNI Islam, at least, it USED to be white until the PAGANS turned it BLACK by, apparently, absorbing their sins."
That's clearly a fictional story. The Black Stone is piece of rock from a comet impact, so obviously it was always black in color. The Black Stone doesn't "absorb sins," it's just a space rock, not a magical talisman.
Bruce wrote: "After all, the hadith says you USED to worship stones..."
I'm Black American. You mean the pre-Islamic Ishmaelites?
Bruce wrote: "I'll post that information at the end of this, OK?"
For what? 🤔 I already know the Ishmaelites were pagans before the rise of Islam. Who cares how they treated the Black Stone back then? It's clean now.
Bruce wrote: "And they ended up worshipping the black stone that Muhammad would kiss, making YOU worship MUHAMMAD by bowing DOWN to that stone he kissed."
That still makes zero sense.
For one, it's not mandatory for us to even touch the Stone during the Hajj ritual. People opt to do it because of the prophet's example, but we don't have to. So how are we "worshiping Muhammad" by volunteering to follow his example or not?
Anyway, we're supposed to follow the prophets' example, that's why they were here. How is that worshiping them when God told us to follow their example?
Please explain.
Bruce wrote: "Again, if THAT is not worship of Muhammad, WHAT is? THINK, please."
I already thought it through, and the ball is in your court to explain how following the example of the messenger is an act of worshiping the human, when we do it in obedience to God's command? It looks like you're the one who isn't thinking this through.
If we unhesitantly obey God following Abraham's example, does that mean we worship Abraham (pbuh)? THINK, please.
Bruce wrote: "Well, better than BEING in hell, after all, hot air rises."
Why would the eternal spirit realm of hell have "air" in it? THINK, please.
You watch too much tv.
Bruce wrote: "Numerous? Hmm. Want me to post from Deuteronomy about how a prophet is 'not to be feared?'"
For what? 🤨
I fear only Allah, the Master of the Day of Judgment, who has a heaven & hell to put me in. Why would I fear a prophet the way the Christians do? You've never studied Islam before, huh?
Bruce wrote: "Oh, so Quran 3:28 is to no longer be followed? Really?"
Aren't the Israeli Jews currently bombing Muslim Palestinian kids as we speak? American Jews are currently locking Black Americans (which includes our own Muslim community) out of access to our own nation's resources.
So, how did you come to this new weird conclusion? Because you live inside of your own isolated chest hair pocket universe bubble?
Bruce wrote: "Was Quran 5:51 only for that time as well?"
"as well" was where your strawman effigy fallacy popped in, since that was not my point, but only your own cockeyed interpretation of my comment.
Bruce wrote: "Where have I lied?"
• You said you made me question reality (wtf?)
• You claim that sahih means the hadith themselves are accurate
• You claimed that some of the relics/signs of Allah are more important than others
• You claimed that I personally reject most hadith because they make the prophet look bad
• You claimed that Muslims worship Muhammad, the Black Stone and the Ka'aba as idols
• You claimed that I said that Surahs 3:28 and 5:51 no longer need to be followed.
There's many other lies of yours in this same vein, but I didn't feel like scrolling up that far for that. You are aware of your own slippery and purposefully deceitful rhetoric style.
Bruce Ramsey - M. Rasheed wrote: "Because God is literally giving you permission to do it to save your life. That's a Mercy. If the All-Powerful One God is giving you permission, then what is this dumbass pushback you are providing??? #Stupid"
Sounds like you REALLY don't believe sahih (sound) that has Muhammad saying that, after you are a 40-day old blood clot, and, before you are born, Allah sends an angel into your "mother's belly" to write a decree that will have you either in "the garden" or "the fire" when you die. That, IF you are to be in "the garden", you can be "one cubit-length from the fire", BUT the "decree will overtake thee", and you will take on the actions of the people of Paradise and go off into "the garden". It's the reverse if the decree is that you go off into "the fire". And YOU don't believe that, I can imagine, even though it's sahih (sound) Bukhari that has Mo saying that.
M. Rasheed wrote: "Why would it have to be? What does it normally mean to be forced to do something? smh"
Oh, so you can even deny Allah on less serious matters? Wow.
M. Rasheed wrote: "Yeah? lol"
Right, and it doesn't have to be a life-threatening matter, so, Allah CAN let you deny him even for what? Because you want to date a hot Jewish chick? If so, this is PROOF that lying is permitted in Islam, BIG time.
M. Rasheed wrote: "You mean the same site that's written at the top of the 19/60 thing I posted? That one? 🙄"
I have no idea.
M. Rasheed wrote: "How are people usually forced?"
Well, since you said, "why would it have to be? What does it normally mean to be forced to something? smh." Apparently, you can deny Allah over anything, which begs the question... WHEN is a Muslim supposed to be truthful?
M. Rasheed wrote: "God Judges us based on our righteousness. Those who are more righteous will have a higher rank in paradise. The martyrs will be at the highest rank with the prophets."
But you CAN deny Allah, I see.
M. Rasheed wrote: "So, according to you, it couldn't have meant 'forced' to the 7th century Arabs because the bad guys didn't have any guns to put to their heads, true?"
No. But, again, you said, "Why would it have to be? What does it normally mean to be forced to something? smh", it apprently doesn't have to be ANY weapon.
M. Rasheed wrote: "God gave permission to lie during extreme circumstances in order to save your life, so your question doesn't makes sense, since it appears to ignore that part to make [yet another ignorant] non-point."
Oh, so it DOES have to be a threat to your life? Can you make up your mind?
M. Rasheed wrote: "I'll admit I'm a sucker for lengthy back-n-forths on social media. 😞"
Ditto.
M. Rasheed wrote: "Not once, clown. At best you provide material that I can use in my editorial cartoon work, although I don't do too many of those on the religious side. Other than that, I enjoy clever banter with game opponents."
Same here. 🙂
M. Rasheed wrote: "By now, you recognize I see through your knowledge gap deficiencies and have no respect for your sophistry tricks,"
What have I said qualifies as a "knowledge gap deficiency" too you? IF you can provide, you will prove that you didn't do taqiyya (lying for Allah) by accusing me of that.
M. Rasheed wrote: "so how you can fix your mouth to think anything you've typed has made me "question reality" is beyond me."
Well, it's clear that I haven't.
M. Rasheed wrote: "You're definitely not that guy. Find a higher-quality guru. That might help."
OK.
M. Rasheed wrote: "If God had them do it at all, it was probably only temporary until they got their own community established in the promised land. Similar to God having the early Muslims temporarily face Jerusalem when they prayed until it was time to shift to their own community focus."
WHY face Jerusalem at all when the Kaaba was under Islam by then and there was no temple in Jerusalem TOO face? After all, the last temple was destroyed in 70 AD.
M. Rasheed wrote: "I don't know where you're getting "more important" from."
Getting bowed down to?
M. Rasheed wrote: "Why wouldn't all of God's holy relicts be equally important as signs of His Glory? 🤔 Is this a Mormon thing?"
So, you DON'T have to face the Kaaba all the time? You can be like a Christian and "pray in secret" and not be "repetitious like the Muslims", I mean, "pagans", like Jesus says in the "Injeel" when it comes to praying?
M. Rasheed wrote: "The Ka'aba was rebuilt numerous times over the ages. Abraham (pbuh) and Ishmael (pbuh) "raising the foundation" was one of those times."
And, it was destroyed by Abu Tahir of the Qarmations, the black stone stolen and used as a urinal.
M. Rasheed wrote: "Since the children of Israel associated the House with Ishmael (probably), that may be why God didn't decide to test them by facing it during prayer, since they obviously would have failed through pure, over-the-top petty hatred of their brethren nation, whom they still despise. Bruce wrote: "And I bet you reject most hadiths as well." I can't pretend to have read all of the hadith, so "most" would be inaccurate. There's literally hundreds and hundreds of thousands of collected hadith, and most of them haven't been translated into English yet. I do reject the ones that don't align to the Qur'an—which I've already explained 50x to you by now, of course."
And, since there is NO mention of praying five times a day NOR washing Satan out of your nose in the Quran, you don't have to pray five times a day NOR do ablution, true?
M. Rasheed wrote: "I don't know where you're getting 'more important' from. Why wouldn't all of God's holy relicts be equally important as signs of His Glory? 🤔 Is this a Mormon thing?"
Oh, so you can have your patooti in the air NOT facing the black stone? Man, you are a VERY rare kind of Muslim, that is for sure.
M. Rasheed wrote: "The Ka'aba was rebuilt numerous times over the ages."
Without the black silk, it looks it.
M. Rasheed wrote: "Abraham (pbuh) and Ishmael (pbuh) 'raising the foundation' was one of those times. Since the children of Israel associated the House with Ishmael (probably), that may be why God didn't decide to test them by facing it during prayer, since they obviously would have failed through pure, over-the-top petty hatred of their brethren nation, whom they still despise."
I have no idea.
M. Rasheed wrote: "I can't pretend to have read all of the hadith, so 'most' would be inaccurate. There's literally hundreds and hundreds of thousands of collected hadith, and most of them haven't been translated into English yet. I do reject the ones that don't align to the Qur'an—which I've already explained 50x to you by now, of course."
And since there is no mention of 5 times a day in the "clear book that explains
EVERYTHING fully in detail" Quran), you don't have to be like the Sunnis or most Muslims, true?
M. Rasheed wrote: "'Sahih' references the quality check method developed by the scholar to evaluate the trustworthiness of the interviewees he collected the hadith from. It doesn't evaluate the quality of the ahadith they recited though. That's where critics like you fail — you only believe you know what you are talking about, and worse, you try to force Muslims to treat the Qur'an and hadith in the same ignorant and irresponsible way you treat the irredeemably corrupt bible."
So you DON'T say a prayer before sex and LET Satan wrap himself around your dick so Satan will "do the wife", or, DO you say a prayer before sex to keep that from happening even though you and the "wife" can't feel Satan wrapped around your did? Guess what? I never say a prayer first, and NEVER feel Satan wrapped around my did. Because I and the "wife" can't feel Satan wrapped around my dick for my failing to say a prayer first before sex, I say, give Satan a ride.
M. Rasheed wrote: "This is a confused jumbled mess."
I can imagine you hope it is.
M. Rasheed wrote: "The item that stands out most is the idea that we 'worship Muhammad' because he kissed the Black Stone. Can you walk me through the mental journey you took to get there? I don't think like a hellbound retard and can't puzzle out how you came to that genuinely weird conclusion."
OK. Pagans supposedly worshipped the black stone before Mo. Mo kissed the black stone even though it was partnered with Allah. BECAUSE Mo kissed it, Muslims now bow down to it five times a day claiming they don't worship it. Still, IF they aren't, they are STILL bowing down to it because Mo kissed it. If this isn't worshipping Mo, what is?
M. Rasheed wrote: "The One God confirmed that Muhammad (pbuh) is His anointed prophet. So, when the prophet broke all the idols in the Ka'aba, but kept the Black Stone, what does that mean?"
It means that the black stone probably WAS absorbing sins and thus, is no longer white, but black, true? 🙂
M. Rasheed wrote: "It obviously means that even though the pagans came along and worshiped it, the Black Stone was not originally a pagan idol, but was a sign and relict of the One God. The prophet Muhammad's treatment legitimized it."
And yet, Abu Tahir, when he came into Mecca and destroyed the Kaaba and slaughtered thousands of Sunni Muslims, ended up using the black stone as a urinal before returning it in pieces later."
M. Rasheed wrote: "Of course, I don't expect the hostile, biased outsider to agree, I'm just explaining what it means from the Islamic perspective."
Right, a black stone that ended up getting worshipped by pagan Arabs that was supposedly absorbing sins, gets bowed down to because Muhammad kissed it, yet, this is supposedly not worshipping Muhammad, and, the stone ended up getting defiled.
M. Rasheed wrote: "That's clearly a fictional story."
Ya thank?
M. Rasheed wrote: "The Black Stone is piece of rock from a comet impact, so obviously it was always black in color. The Black Stone doesn't 'absorb sins,' it's just a space rock, not a magical talisman."
And, it ended up getting worshipped by pagans until Muhammad kissed it. Now it gets bowed down to hourly because the REAL one who is worshipped, Muhammad, KISSED it.
M. Rasheed wrote: "I'm Black American. You mean the pre-Islamic Ishmaelites?"
I bet you're right.
M. Rasheed wrote: "For what? 🤔 I already know the Ishmaelites were pagans before the rise of Islam. Who cares how they treated the Black Stone back then? It's clean now."
Well, I DO see videos of them cleaning it, that is for sure.
M. Rasheed wrote: "That still makes zero sense."
Of course, it doesn't make sense... IF you really DON'T worship Muhammad.
M. Rasheed wrote: "For one, it's not mandatory for us to even touch the Stone during the Hajj ritual. People opt to do it because of the prophet's example, but we don't have to."
Right, for it's not in the Quran.
M. Rasheed wrote: "So how are we 'worshiping Muhammad' by volunteering to follow his example or not?"
Because of his kissing of it, Muslims bow down to it EVEN though pagans partnered it with Allah... the WORST of sins to old Allah.
M. Rasheed wrote: "Anyway, we're supposed to follow the prophets' example, that's why they were here. How is that worshiping them when God told us to follow their example?"
So you DO enter the bathroom with your left foot so Satan won't play with your butt, even though you can't feel him playing with your butt, true?
M. Rasheed wrote: "Please explain."
So you DO use an odd number of stones to wipe your patooti, true?
M. Rasheed wrote: "I already thought it through, and the ball is in your court to explain how following the example of the messenger is an act of worshiping the human, when we do it in obedience to God's command? It looks like you're the one who isn't thinking this through."
So you DO follow the hadith, true? You DO say a prayer before sex? You DO wash your nose out three times (because a ubiquitous Satan spent the night in it, even though he doesn't interfere with your sense of smell or breathing?
M. Rasheed wrote: "If we unhesitantly obey God following Abraham's example, does that mean we worship Abraham (pbuh)? THINK, please."
So, again, you DO follow the hadith? You DO pray five times a day and wash your nose out?
M. Rasheed wrote: "Why would the eternal spirit realm of hell have 'air' in it? THINK, please."
Why would 99 dragons with seven heads each, crawl up your butt in the grave, thus, the need to have a cotton cork in your butt to keep that from happening? By the way, a scorpion supposedly goes into the grave to sting you with a venom that is SOOOO deadly, it would cause a camel to disintegrate. But how can you fear that deadly scorpion when you are already dead?
M. Rasheed wrote: "You watch too much tv."
I used to. I hardly watch it now.
M. Rasheed wrote: "For what? 🤨"
To show you that if a prophet is wrong in ONE prophecy, he is "not to be feared" (i.e. a false prophet).
M. Rasheed wrote: "I fear only Allah, the Master of the Day of Judgment, who has a heaven & hell to put me in. Why would I fear a prophet the way the Christians do? You've never studied Islam before, huh?"
It's the Torah ("Allah's book given to Musa") that says "not to be feared" if the prophet gets a prophecy wrong. According to Quran scriptures I'm familiar with, YOU, a Muslim, are to believe in ALL the "books of Allah"or be "far astray" and "dragged off into hell fire" according to Quran 4:136, 150, 151, 152, 2:285 and 40:70-72 as a while.
M. Rasheed wrote: "Aren't the Israeli Jews currently bombing Muslim Palestinian kids as we speak? American Jews are currently locking Black Americans (which includes our own Muslim community) out of access to our own nation's resources."
Israel also forced its own citizens to get an experimental clot shot that seems more bad than good. I bet you think I believe Israel is perfect, true?
M. Rasheed wrote: "So, how did you come to this new weird conclusion? Because you live inside of your own isolated chest hair pocket universe bubble?"
Conclusion to what?
M. Rasheed wrote: "'as well' was where your strawman effigy fallacy popped in, since that was not my point, but only your own cockeyed interpretation of my comment."
You seemed to be saying Quran 3:28 was in the passed, if so, how about 5:51, which pretty much says the same thing except for the "guarding AGAINST" thing.
M. Rasheed wrote: "• You said you made me question reality (wtf?)"
Isn't Islam YOUR reality? How is that a lie?
M. Rasheed wrote: "You claim that sahih means the hadith themselves are accurate"
No, I said sahih means (sound/authentic). You are putting words in my mouth.
M. Rasheed wrote: "• You claimed that some of the relics/signs of Allah are more important than others"
I don't see how that is a lie when the black stone and Kaaba is the only direction you face.
M. Rasheed wrote: "• You claimed that I personally reject most hadith because they make the prophet look bad"
If I said that, I was thinking of most Muslims, for THEY cherry pick any hadith that doesn't make Mo sound stupid, crazy or evil. I don't see how that is a lie.
M. Rasheed wrote: "• You claimed that Muslims worship Muhammad, the Black Stone and the Ka'aba"
No, I say Muslims worship Muhammad because Muslims bow down to a rock that WAS worshipped JUST because Muhammad kissed it. That sounds like worship to ME.
M. Rasheed wrote: "• You claimed that I said that Surahs 3:28 and 5:51 no longer need to be followed."
No, the way you worded it, it SOUNDED like you were inferring they no longer need to be followed, well, the 3:28. You have remained pretty much silent on 5:51.
M. Rasheed wrote: "There's many other lies of yours in this same vein,"
Oh, I bet they are, for what you presented aren't lies on my part.
M. Rasheed wrote: "but I didn't feel like scrolling up that far for that. You are aware of your own slippery and purposefully deceitful rhetoric style."
If asking questions is that to you, so be it. 🙂
Muhammad Rasheed - Bruce wrote: "even though it's sahih (sound) Bukhari that has Mo saying that."
lol "That has him saying that" is the key. Right.
Bruce: "Oh, so you can even deny Allah on less serious matters? Wow."
Did I "deny Allah," or did I ask you why the Qur'an would need to show detailed samples of the different types of compulsion there could be, and mention that death could be the result of a given compulsion, since the meaning of "by compulsion" was clear to any thinking human? This fake "wow" counts as a lie, by the way.
Bruce wrote: "Right, and it doesn't have to be a life-threatening matter"
Or any other type of hardship, sure.
Bruce wrote: "Because you want to date a hot Jewish chick? If so, this is PROOF that lying is permitted in Islam, BIG time."
Apparently, you're just babbling to yourself now.
Bruce wrote: "I have no idea."
Does that mean you didn't even bother to click on the 19/60 English translations screenshot I posted and had no idea what I was talking about when I mentioned "19/60?"
Is that the real reason you've been repeating the same stuff over and over and over again because you were dismissing my argument without any consideration whatsoever?
If so, then explain how you were supposed to be 'shaking my reality' or whatever you said? We're not even having a real discussion since only one of us was bothering to read what the other posted and responding to it — you were just going through the motions.
What was the original reason you reached out to me in DM? I forgot.
What do you actually want?
To persuade me to watch your 'christian prince' vids?
No, thank you.
Bruce Ramsey - M. Rasheed wrote: "lol 'That has him saying that' is the key. Right."
A hadith you don't believe, I see.
M. Rasheed wrote: "Did I 'deny Allah,' or did I ask you why the Qur'an would need to show detailed samples of the different types of compulsion there could be,"
M. Rasheed wrote: "and mention that death could be the result of a given compulsion, since the meaning of 'by compulsion' was clear to any thinking human? This fake 'wow' counts as a lie, by the way."
A question is a lie? Hmm.
M. Rasheed wrote: "Or any other type of hardship, sure."
Wow. OK. Well, that goes along with Mo saying you can lie in three matters. To the enemy, the friend and the wife. Which begs the question... WHEN is a Muslim to be truthful?
M. Rasheed wrote: "Apparently, you're just babbling to yourself now."
Didn't you just say above "Rash: Or any other type of hardship, sure."
M. Rasheed wrote: "Does that mean you didn't even bother to click on the 19/60 English translations screenshot I posted and had no idea what I was talking about when I mentioned '19/60?'"
It means I don't really know what you mean by 19/60, that is true. Remind me, please.
M. Rasheed wrote: "Is that the real reason you've been repeating the same stuff over and over and over again because you were dismissing my argument without any consideration whatsoever?"
Again, remind me what 19/60 means. I'm no longer a young guy with a good memory.
M. Rasheed wrote: "If so, then explain how you were supposed to be 'shaking my reality' or whatever you said?"
The Quran warns Muslims to not ask questions or risk leaving the faith (Quran 5:101-102). That seems to mean questions can rattle a Muslim, at least. After all, questioning gets one out of cults, like it got me out of Mormonism.
M. Rasheed wrote: "We're not even having a real discussion since only one of us was bothering to read what the other posted and responding to it — you were just going through the motions."
So, my interjecting thoughts with yours is proof that I don't respond to you? Hmmmmmm.
M. Rasheed wrote: "What was the original reason you reached out to me in DM? I forgot."
I forgot as well. And, when I went back to check, it didn't ring any bells. I guess old Allah said "be" and wants us to talk.
M. Rasheed wrote: "What do you actually want?"
I leave that in God's hands.
M. Rasheed wrote: "To persuade me to watch your 'christian prince' vids?"
No, for that is an impossible task. A Muslim will ONLY sit through his videos if they already have questions about Islam that are troubling them, it seems. OR... they have never seen one of his videos and don't know how good he is at exposing Islam. SOME think highly of themselves, like Mojab, and will actually challenge him.
M. Rasheed wrote: "No, thank you."
Yeah, I didn't think you'd see any of his stuff. And, if I wanted to stay in Islam, I wouldn't even watch a SECOND of his stuff, myself. All it takes is a few minutes of truthful observation of his videos, and POOF! goes Allah into a cloud of logic.
Muhammad Rasheed - Bruce wrote: "A hadith you don't believe, I see."
Why would I? Because you want me to?
"EVERYTHING" like what? Stuff an outsider just makes up?
The Qur'an is very clear and explains in detail everything the believer needs to achieve paradise. Allah calls it a fuller explanation of the Book He revealed to Moses (pbuh).
Bruce wrote: "Didn't you just say above 'Or any other type of hardship, sure'?"
Meaning, the hardship doesn't have to be literally "life threatening," or it can be other types of hardships subjectively.
Bruce wrote: "It means I don't really know what you mean by 19/60, that is true. Remind me, please."
Bruce wrote: "The Quran warns Muslims to not ask questions or risk leaving the faith (Quran 5:101-102). That seems to mean questions can rattle a Muslim, at least."
Allah warned not to ask questions about specific aspects of the faith that might push an individual's subjective buttons and cause them to leave the faith. Not everyone is built for the high-level stuff. There were many believers who abandoned Islam when they heard the Night Journey account, for example; it was too much for them.
Bruce wrote: "After all, questioning gets one out of cults, like it got me out of Mormonism."
How are you defining "cult?"
What do you think you've provided that was capable of personally shaking my own faith?
Bruce wrote: "So, my interjecting thoughts with yours is proof that I don't respond to you? Hmmmmmm."
So, after all the times I referenced that 19/60 screenshot, you never once asked me what I was talking about if you really didn't know, huh? What did that have to do with you "interjecting thoughts" or whatever?
Bruce wrote: "I guess old Allah said 'be' and wants us to talk."
Are we really "talking" since you're not even paying attention to your opponent's side of the discussion and are objectively wasting his time?
Bruce wrote: "and don't know how good he is at exposing Islam"
🙄🥱
Al-Islam is rock solid. Since 'christian prince' is your self-confessed personal guru, and your own tactic is just to play silly & transparent sophistry games and time-wasting wordplay, I'm forced to conclude that your guru is no different. I'm confident he isn't "exposing" anything but his own foolishness as you've done here.
Is 'christian prince' an Indian?
Bruce wrote: "and POOF! goes Allah into a cloud of logic."
Do you believe your own position has been a demonstration of logic?
Bruce Ramsey - M. Rasheed wrote: "Why would I? Because you want me to?"
Hey, just an observation.
M. Rasheed wrote: "'EVERYTHING' like what? Stuff an outsider just makes up?"
What comes to your mind when you here the word "everything"? The Quran says it explains
EVERYTHING fully in detail. The thing is, I can't find it talking about Fortran and Basic computer programming, so, I'm thinking Mo might have been saying stuff off the top of his turban again like, "seeking knowledge for ONE hour is BETTER than praying for SEVENTY years"! Talk about the biggest, hardest, SWIFTED KICK into the upraised Muslim patooti in prostration on a prayer rug facing the pagan Arab black stone EVER. That is such an INSULT to anyone who had their patooti up in the air on a prayer rug for SEVENTY years. I mean, if was a Muslim who DIDN'T believe Mo just said things off the top of his turban, I'd be SOOOOOO pissed if I came upon that saying after SEVENTY years of being in that upraised patooti position for NOTHING! OMA!!!
M. Rasheed wrote: "The Qur'an is very clear and explains in detail everything the believer needs to achieve paradise."
If so, you are far better than Allah at making the Quran clear, sir. Allah should forgive those doing bid'ah and BLESS them, rather than damn them at improving on his "clear signs/book".
M. Rasheed wrote: "Allah calls it a fuller explanation of the Book He revealed to Moses (pbuh)."
Oh, I'm sure "Allah" does.
M. Rasheed wrote: "Meaning, the hardship doesn't have to be literally 'life threatening,' or it can be other types of hardships subjectively."
Like wanting to date the hot Jewish chick? So you have to say things like "Oy vay!" instead of "Alhamdulilah", so she doesn't get suspicious?
*(Rasheed shows the multiple Quran scriptures of 19/60 that read... nothing that resembles what is in the picture)*
To post that picture means... what? I mean, I KNOW there are different versions of the Quran in English, and, I don't see a problem with that. I DO see a problem with differences in the Arabic, something you keep on avoid talking about, I see, like putting up something harmless to Islam that is harmless to Christianity with the different versions of the Bible in English. It's the changes in the ARABIC that is important, creating the Worsh and the Hafs. But, again, I can see why you are avoiding that and putting on a picture from islamawakened that deals with a change in ENGLISH versions of the Quran.
M. Rasheed wrote: "Allah warned not to ask questions about specific aspects of the faith that might push an individual's subjective buttons and cause them to leave the faith."
Right. Could one of those be like, "Why does Muhammad teach that we, as embryos, go through a FORTY-Day blood clot stage when a blood clot is dead blood"? THAT'S a question that can be "troubling" and cause one to leave the faith, true?
Not everyone is built for the high-level stuff.
What is "high-level stuff" to you?
M. Rasheed wrote: "There were many believers who abandoned Islam when they heard the Night Journey account, for example; it was too much for them."
That wouldn't get me out of Islam, but it WOULD shake my faith when I found out IN that journey Muhammad visits two structures (the Al Aqsa and the Temple of Solomon) that didn't exist in his time. I'd also think it strange that Allah wanted me to have my patooti in the air FIFTY times a day when Allah supposedly doesn't need your worship.
M. Rasheed wrote: "How are you defining 'cult?'"
A religion different from the one you are in now.
M. Rasheed wrote: "What do you think you've provided that was capable of personally shaking my own faith?"
NOTHING will shake your faith if what I present to you you see as lies. If I were a Muslim wanting to hold onto Islam, I'd believe everything the non-Muslim sent to me to be nothing but lies from "the Shaitan" myself. I mean, I thought my dad was under the control of Satan when he presented stuff that went counter to Mormonism.
M. Rasheed wrote: "So, after all the times I referenced that 19/60 screenshot, you never once asked me what I was talking about if you really didn't know, huh?"
I forgot what it was associated with, yes. For one thing, 19/60 didn't match with any Quran scripture presented in the picture making me think it was something other than the Quran, and, since you weren't clear with what it meant FOR posting it, I thought you were just doing some kind of diversion. After closer study, it seems to be diversion away from the fact that the Arabic of the Hafs differs from the Arabic of the Worsh. Is THAT why you posted it? To cause diversion from that?
M. Rasheed wrote: "What did that have to do with you 'interjecting thoughts' or whatever?"
I don't remember if I did or didn't. IF I did, it was probably me trying to call your attention to the fact that I wasn't interested in the English versions of the Quran, I was interested in the ARABIC differences between the Hafs and the Worsh, and, thus, to POST the 19/60 ENGLISH was only diversion FROM this fact.
M. Rasheed wrote: "Are we really 'talking' since you're not even paying attention to your opponent's side of the discussion and are objectively wasting his time?"
WHY did you post the different ENGLISH versions of the Quran when that is not important to me? OH, that's right. You were just trying to divert from the different ARABIC of the Worsh and Hafs. The "19/60" is what that was all about, true? 🙂
M. Rasheed wrote: "Al-Islam is rock solid."
🙂
M. Rasheed wrote: "Since 'christian prince' is your self-confessed personal guru, and your own tactic is just to play silly & transparent sophistry games and time-wasting wordplay, I'm forced to conclude that your guru is no different."
No, for CP is a native ARABIC speaker, so no Muslim can play the "If you only understood Arabic" nonsense with him.
M. Rasheed wrote: "I'm confident he isn't 'exposing' anything but his own foolishness as you've done here."
And, since Muslims usually say the opposite of that which is true, I'll take that as a super compliment. 🙂
M. Rasheed wrote: "Is 'christian prince' an Indian?"
No, native Arab speaker. I think you are thinking of Zakir Naik, of whom Chrisitan Prince can mimic very well.
M. Rasheed wrote: "Do you believe your own position has been a demonstration of logic?"
You mean with a God who's ways aren't our ways? Thoughts not our thoughts? Who is above as as the stars? Oh yes. Anyway, Rasheed. I'm going to bed now. You have a good day, where ever you are.
Does it? Or is this your interpretation that functions more like a strawman effigy? What does the verse you're referencing actually say?
Bruce wrote: "The thing is, I can't find it talking about Fortran and Basic computer programming"
Funny. So, if the Qur'an's verse you're referencing really does say "EVERYTHING" it obviously can't mean in the literal sense. Now I'm eager to see this verse so we can analyze it together.
Bruce wrote: "so, I'm thinking Mo might have been saying stuff off the top of his turban again like, 'seeking knowledge for ONE hour is BETTER than praying for SEVENTY years!'"
Are you assuming he really did say that? Why?
Bruce wrote: "If so, you are far better than Allah at making the Quran clear, sir."
You think so? Let's compare what I said to the actual verse you're referencing.
Bruce wrote: "Like wanting to date the hot Jewish chick? So you have to say things like 'Oy vay!' instead of 'Alhamdulilah,' so she doesn't get suspicious?"
I'll admit you completely lost me with this bit. I have no idea what you're talking about.
Bruce wrote: "To post that picture means... what? I mean, I KNOW there are different versions of the Quran in English, and, I don't see a problem with that. I DO see a problem with differences in the Arabic, something you keep on avoid talking about, I see, like putting up something harmless to Islam that is harmless to Christianity with the different versions of the Bible in English. It's the changes in the ARABIC that is important, creating the Worsh and the Hafs. But, again, I can see why you are avoiding that and putting on a picture from islamawakened that deals with a change in ENGLISH versions of the Quran."
So, I was right. you weren't paying attention to the discussion at ALL, you were just frustratingly, blindly posting the same sh*t over and over and over for days now.
• ['They deceived' to 'they tried to deceive'] represents the sample of poor/wonky English translation that I helped illustrate with the 19/60 screenshot.
• ['Youse guys' vs 'y'all'] represents the pronunciation & spelling differences between different dialect-type expressions of the same meaning within the same language — this is why the Arabic looks different in your Worsh/Hafs chart.
I'm said this a 1,000 times, only to discover you weren't even reading it and I was literally wasting my time.
To say that I am frustrated and annoyed with you right now is an understatement. If you don't have time to be a keyboard warrior then why half-ass it?
Just f*cking retire.
Bruce wrote: "Could one of those be like, 'Why does Muhammad teach that we, as embryos, go through a FORTY-Day blood clot stage when a blood clot is dead blood?' THAT'S a question that can be 'troubling' and cause one to leave the faith, true?"
This would only be true if the hadith claimed to the inerrant Word of God instead of the collected body of testimonies of a bunch of people who recited the passed down sayings and observations of widely differing quality about Muhammad (pbuh) and the sahaba.
Bruce wrote: "WHY did you post the different ENGLISH versions of the Quran when that is not important to me?"
Because you kept posting the English translations of the 'Worsh/Hafs' dialects as proof of whatever. The point of the 19/60 English translations screenshot is that people often make weird choices when translating Arabic into English.
Bruce wrote: "OH, that's right. You were just trying to divert from the different ARABIC of the Worsh and Hafs. The '19/60' is what that was all about, true? 🙂"
No, the 19/60 screen was specifically addressing the fact that you kept posting the English translation of the Worsh/Hafs.
I addressed the differences in the two Arabic dialects by using the example of two English dialects (New York "youse guys" versus Mississippi "y'all").
Here you are claiming I didn't address it at all when I've spent the last few days repeating it over and over and over wondering when you were finally going to get to whatever this punchline was going to be (angry because I suspected it wasn't to be worth the payoff and I was right), only to find out you were actually in your own La-La Land not even paying attention to the discussion.
Bruce wrote: "🙂"
You doubt that Islam is rock solid when your only response to solid proof that backs the religion's most important claims is that people must've took a bribe? lol
Bruce wrote: "No, for CP is a native ARABIC speaker, so no Muslim can play the 'If you only understood Arabic' nonsense with him."
I don't speak Arabic anyway, so why would I care about that? If that's his biggest appeal to you anti-Islam critics, then what do I need to watch the mess for?
Bruce wrote: "And, since Muslims usually say the opposite of that"
Surrrrre they do. lol
Bruce wrote: "No, native Arab speaker."
🤔 That's not really answering whether he's an Indian or not.
Bruce wrote: "You mean with a God who's ways aren't our ways? Thoughts not our thoughts?"
I asked whether you think you've presented a logical argument and you started reciting random poetry.
Bruce wrote: "Who is above as as the stars?"
God is above the stars. 🙄
Bruce wrote: "Oh yes."
So, if your position is supposed to be the logical one, why do you keep presenting as if I should blindly believe all the hadith as a Muslim? What is logical about that approach when it gives the impression you've never studied any aspect of Islam ever?
Bruce Ramsey - M. Rasheed wrote: "Does it? Or is this your interpretation that functions more like a strawman effigy? What does the verse you're referencing actually say?"
Well, I made a video out of it. The video is very poor, but the description contains the scriptures you can observe: [LINK] another one of Bruce's vids | Bitchute
M. Rasheed wrote: "Funny. So, if the Qur'an's verse you're referencing really does say 'EVERYTHING' it obviously can't mean in the literal sense."
So Mo was just exaggerating?
M. Rasheed wrote: "Now I'm eager to see this verse so we can analyze it together."
Well, check out the scriptures listed in that video. I don't recommend you sitting through it, for it is not very good, but, again, it has the scriptures, including the "explains everything fully in detail".
M. Rasheed wrote: "Are you assuming he really did say that? Why?"
A guy who says you have to wash your nose out three times due to Satan spending the night in it even though he doesn't interfere with breathing and sense of smell DOESN'T say things off the top of his turban.
M. Rasheed wrote: "You think so? Let's compare what I said to the actual verse you're referencing."
OK.
M. Rasheed wrote: "I'll admit you completely lost me with this bit. I have no idea what you're talking about."
It's called "taqiyya", pretending you are something when you are not. Before the hijackers boarded the planes on 9:111, wait, that's the scripture for 9/11/01, they shaved their beards, went to bars and acted like they weren't Muslim. That is "taqiyya" (lying for Allah). Oh, and, they knew that WHEN they "martyred" with those airliners, they would be fulfilling 9/11/01, I mean, Quran 9:111 about killing and being killed in the cause of Allah, thus, everything would be forgiven. Afterall, Muhammad said the best deed is fighting in the cause of Allah (jihad), that the greatest jihad is to basically die killing in Allah's cause. Of course, Muhammad also said the greatest jihad is saying a truth in the presence of a tyrant, like saying "sugar is sweet" infront of Saddam Hussein. But Muslims usually can't get close to tyrants to produce the "greatest jihad" by saying "sugar is sweet" infront of a Saddam, so they resort to fulfilling Quran 9/11/01, I mean, surah 9:111.
M. Rasheed wrote: "So, I was right. You weren't paying attention to the discussion at ALL, you were just frustratingly, blindly posting the same sh*t over and over and over for days now."
It wasn't clear to me why you kept on talking about different ENGLISH versions of the Quran. But, I know now. It was simple diversion, wasn't it? 🙂
M. Rasheed wrote: "• ['They deceived' to 'they tried to deceive'] represents the sample of poor/wonky English translation that I helped illustrate with the 19/60 screenshot."
Again... again... again.... can you look at the Arabic that would create the "wonky English"? Can you? 🙂
M. Rasheed wrote: "• ['Youse guys' vs 'y'all'] represents the pronunciation & spelling differences between different dialect-type expressions of the same meaning within the same language — this is why the Arabic looks different in your Worsh/Hafs chart."
CONGRATULATIONS!!! The Arabis WAS changed!!! You finally ADMITTED it!!! So the "clear signs" (Quran) is NOT "perfectly prserved right down to the letter like Sheik Yasser Qahdi admitted with his now infamous "dat dee standard narrative...has HOLES in it". OK. 🙂
M. Rasheed wrote: "I've said this a 1,000 times, only to discover you weren't even reading it and I was literally wasting my time."
No, I found it confusing, but now I know. It was only diversion from something you finally revealed... "dat dee... standard narrative... has HOLES in it" (a change in the "perfectly preserved Quran").
M. Rasheed wrote: "To say that I am frustrated and annoyed with you right now is an understatement. If you don't have time to be a keyboard warrior then why half-ass it?"
Does it look like I'm not interested in what you have to say with the interjecting of my thoughts with yours?
M. Rasheed wrote: "Just f*cking retire."
I leave that up to you. I WILL concentrate more on what you are trying to get at, OK?
M. Rasheed wrote: "This would only be true if the hadith claimed to be the inerrant Word of God instead of the collected body of testimonies of a bunch of people who recited the passed down sayings and observations of widely differing quality about Muhammad (pbuh) and the sahaba."
In otherwords, the hadith is only for something a Muslim to cherry pick what parts he wants to believe are true, I see. Well, if I were a Muslim, the part I'd cherry pick is the "one hour of seeking knowledge is better than praying for 70 years", how about you? 🙂
M. Rasheed wrote: "Because you kept posting the English translations of the 'Worsh/Hafs' dialects as proof of whatever. The point of the 19/60 English translations screenshot is that people often make weird choices when translating Arabic into English."
And, I finally found out that DUE to the "wonky English" is because you FINALLY admitted it was DUE to the "represents the pronunciation & spelling differences between different dialect-type expressions of the same meaning within the same language — this is why the Arabic looks different in your Worsh/Hafs chart" getting ME to CONGRATULATE you.
M. Rasheed wrote: "No,"
NO!?!? 🙂
M. Rasheed wrote: "the 19/60 screen was specifically addressing the fact that you kept posting the English translation of the Worsh/Hafs."
OK.
M. Rasheed wrote: "I addressed the differences in the two Arabic dialects by using the example of two English dialects (New York 'youse guys' versus Mississippi 'y'all')."
And, with that, I always responded back with the question of "youse guys being y'all" is like "he fought" being "he was killed" to you?" I see a big difference there, MORE than just a "dialect change". That, sir, is a MEANING change. And if it's NOT a MEANING change to YOU, then, as I said, there is NO change in the Bible either.
M. Rasheed wrote: "Here you are claiming I didn't address it at all when I've spent the last few days repeating it over and over and over wondering when you were finally going to get to whatever this punchline was going to be (angry because I suspected it wasn't to be worth the payoff and I was right), only to find out you were actually in your own La-La Land not even paying attention to the discussion."
I think you are talking about yourself sir... "projection"?
M. Rasheed wrote: "You doubt that Islam is rock solid when your only response to solid proof that backs the religion's most important claims is that people must've took a bribe? lol"
Yeah.
M. Rasheed wrote: "I don't speak Arabic anyway, so why would I care about that?"
Well, it is one of the main weapons Muslims use to try to protect Islam. Since you admitted you don't know Arabic, you can't use that weapon against me now. I wouldn't believe it anyway, because Muslims who know Arabic don't even seem to know what their religion teaches. By the way, in Africa, students are forced to memorize the Quran in Arabic when they don't even know Arabic. I find this very abusive. It is FAR better to STUDY the Quran than force innocent children to become human tape recorders of something they don't understand. And by the way, I've seen these little African children being BEATEN and in CHAINS for not being able to memorize the Quran.
M. Rasheed wrote: "If that's his biggest appeal to you anti-Islam critics, then what do I need to watch the mess for?"
No, I watch Christian Prince because he is very knowledgeable about Islam. Nearly 20 years ago, he introduced me to Quran 3:28, PROVING that Muslims are allowed to lie. By the way, that was the FIRST video I saw to get pulled off of YouTube... it was THAT video.
M. Rasheed wrote: "Surrrrre they do. lol"
Well, they do.
M. Rasheed wrote: "🤔 That's not really answering whether he's an Indian or not."
Too me, it's not important where someone has come from, but, what knowledge they possess and how they use it. He could be a Piute Indian, and I'd listen to him if he were knowledgeable, and Chrisitan Prince is that.
M. Rasheed wrote: "I asked whether you think you've presented a logical argument and you started reciting random poetry."
You are calling the Bible "random poetry". I forgot the reason as to why I responded with that scripture. Can you remind me why I would have said that?
M. Rasheed wrote: "God is above the stars. 🙄"
Right. But the "before Scriptures" (Bible) also says God "fills both heaven and earth", whereas Allah comes down to the "lowest heaven" every "third part of the night". And, since it is ALWAYS a "third part of the night" SOMEwhere, I have given Allah a 100th name... "Al Yoyo". Oh, and here is a video about it that I made:
[LINK] another toxically unsolicited Bruce vid | Bitchute
M. Rasheed wrote: "So, if your position is supposed to be the logical one, why do you keep presenting as if I should blindly believe all the hadith as a Muslim?"
Where did I say you have to? It's now apparent to me, that Muslims cherry pick what they want from the hadith, and, again, IF I was a Muslim, I'd cherry pick either "seeking knowledge for one hour is better than praying for 70 years", OR, I'd cherry pick "contemplation for one hour is BETTER than 60 years of worship", OR, I'd believe the "the rank of a man of silence is BETTER than Divine Service". But, I'm going to go for the "seeking knowledge being better than praying for 70 years. Thus, what you are doing right now, seeking knowledge from ME, should free you from having your patooit in the air for, what? A year, at least?
M. Rasheed wrote: "What is logical about that approach when it gives the impression you've never studied any aspect of Islam ever?"
Muslims accuse Christian Prince of knowing nothing about Islam all the time, so, I'll take that as a compliment. 🙂
Muhammad Rasheed - Bruce wrote: "Well, I made a video out of it."
Posting the verse you were referencing would have sufficed. I can't imagine watching a video of you rant on about your pet nonsense after you literally ignored my posts (19/60) for three days and wasted my damned time. You have a lot of nerve.
Bruce wrote: "So Mo was just exaggerating?"
Post the verse and let's see what it says together.
Bruce wrote: "Well, check out the scriptures listed in that video."
I'll just wait for you to post the verses in the chat. There's a lad.
Bruce wrote: "A guy who says you have to wash your nose out three times due to Satan spending the night in it"
Do you really believe he actually said that, too? Why?
Bruce wrote: "they shaved their beards, went to bars and acted like they weren't Muslim."
Pretty sure they were groomed CIA/Mossad agents. But go off.
Bruce wrote: "That is "taqiyya" (lying for Allah)."
lol My favorite part is when, even after you see the actual context of the verse you twisted beyond recognition, you still go right back to your hate propaganda like it didn't even happen and I'm supposed to just believe your take on it. It's honestly like you have a demon puppetmaster's hand up your rectum, or something.
Bruce wrote: "they would be fulfilling 9/11/01, I mean, Quran 9:111 about killing and being killed in the cause of Allah"
I'll assume you're reading that off of one of the hate memes in the FB chat, since the context of the verse doesn't say what you're implying.
Bruce wrote: "about killing and being killed in the cause of Allah, thus, everything would be forgiven."
You think so? What's the difference between "being slain" versus committing suicide? What does the Qur'an say about suicide and about killing innocent people during warfare and how does that align to the "cause of Allah" exactly?
Bruce wrote: "Afterall, Muhammad said the best deed is fighting in the cause of Allah (jihad)"
lol @ "Afterall." What is the 'Cause of Allah' exactly?
Bruce wrote: "that the greatest jihad is to basically die killing in Allah's cause."
It's true. The martyrs will be at the highest level of heaven with the prophets.
Bruce wrote: "Of course, Muhammad also said the greatest jihad is saying a truth in the presence of a tyrant"
They are clearly linked. They both require the same amount of bravery, pretty much.
Bruce wrote: "so they resort to fulfilling Quran 9/11/01, I mean, surah 9:111."
Blaming the cruel machinations of Western intelligence schemes in the Middle East on the Muslims is wild.
Bruce wrote: "CONGRATULATIONS!!! The Arabis WAS changed!!!"
So, 3-days later you finally acknowledged what I posted continuously in response to you continuously saying the same thing over and over and over. wtf?
Bruce wrote: "So the "clear signs" (Quran) is NOT "perfectly prserved right down to the letter like Sheik Yasser Qahdi admitted with his now infamous "dat dee standard narrative...has HOLES in it". OK. 🙂"
I don't know what all of this means; it looks like you got your silly self confused somewhere. The Worsh and Hafs are two different Arabic dialects — different from the hejazi dialect that the caliph wished to standardize. I don't understand why you are still confused over this. It's dumb. I used the "youse guys/y'all" analogy to explain it for you, but you appear to be committed to foolishness.
Bruce wrote: "In otherwords, the hadith is only for something a Muslim to cherry pick what parts he wants to believe are true, I see."
A collected body of material from a bunch of random humans who are claiming their recitations are from the prophet of God should absolutely be sorted through and analyzed to determine which ones are real or not. The hostile and biased outsider may refer to this reasonable quality assurance process as "cherry-picking" as he likes, since he can be fully expected to interpret any activities within this religion he hates in the most negative light he can conjure.
Bruce wrote: "Well, if I were a Muslim, the part I'd cherry pick is the 'one hour of seeking knowledge is better than praying for 70 years,' how about you? 🙂"
No. Praying to God is the best way to get closer to Him—the more the believer prays, especially in the wee hours of the night, praying for forgiveness as a trait of the People of Excellence—is best, so obviously that hadith is false. I do understand how it can be attractive to the chronically lazy, or people who are full of themselves and secretly believe they are actually God's peer and don't need to pray or whatever else is going on in their sociopathic heads.
Bruce wrote: "I leave that up to you. I WILL concentrate more on what you are trying to get at, OK?"
We'll see.
Bruce wrote: "this is why the Arabic looks different in your Worsh/Hafs chart" getting ME to CONGRATULATE you."
I don't get it. The entire point of burning those variant dialect Qur'ans was so the caliph could standardize the hejazi dialect version it was revealed in, so why are you excited about the other dialect variants again?
Bruce wrote: "And, with that, I always responded back with the question of 'youse guys being y'all' is like 'he fought' being 'he was killed' to you?" I see a big difference there, MORE than just a 'dialect change.' That, sir, is a MEANING change."
...and now you are AGAIN using wonky English translations to represent the changes in Arabic, when the 19/60 screenshot proves the English translations of varying accuracy can falsely give an impression of a change in meaning within the Arabic itself.
I win.
Bruce wrote: "And if it's NOT a MEANING change to YOU, then, as I said, there is NO change in the Bible either."
1.) It's not a change in the Arabic verse's meaning; that's an illusion cast by the poor English translation that your point is hinged upon.
2.) That's a false equivalency fallacy since your own Christian scholars admit that the bible's problems are not merely translation deviations, but the bible is a fabricated document written by anonymous authors to push various and often contradictory agendas.
Bruce wrote: "I think you are talking about yourself sir... 'projection?'"
Sure.
Bruce wrote: "Yeah."
#Unserious.
Bruce wrote: "Well, it is one of the main weapons Muslims use to try to protect Islam."
lol
Bruce wrote: "Since you admitted you don't know Arabic, you can't use that weapon against me now."
Huh?
Bruce wrote: "I wouldn't believe it anyway, because Muslims who know Arabic don't even seem to know what their religion teaches."
I know that the Muslims in these FB debate chat groups are mostly African, are pretty weak in their faith studies and are your usual prey, which is where your confidence and argument style comes from.
Bruce wrote: "By the way, in Africa, students are forced"
Schooling is compulsory for students all over the world. lol
Bruce wrote: "to memorize the Quran in Arabic when they don't even know Arabic. I find this very abusive."
So, because you personally hate Islam, you think that group's compulsory education for their own students is abusive, huh? lol How am I supposed to take that comment seriously?
Bruce wrote: "It is FAR better to STUDY the Quran than force innocent children to become human tape recorders of something they don't understand."
Compulsory education all over the globe is often learned by rote. lol But because you personally hate Islam, this particular learning by rote is wrong to you. What a worthless comment.
Bruce wrote: "And by the way, I've seen these little African children being BEATEN and in CHAINS for not being able to memorize the Quran."
Yeah? I've seen white police officers kill unarmed Black American children because they hated their ethnic group. Your fake moral high-horse is stupid.
You're literally committed to insulting my sacred belief system as the unrepentant hellbound, and you think your fake moral high-horse 'lecturing' will mean something to me.
Curious.
Bruce wrote: "No, I watch Christian Prince because he is very knowledgeable about Islam."
He's very knowledgeable about using sophistry tricks to confound poorly-studied Muslims and trapping them, you mean.
Bruce wrote: "Nearly 20 years ago, he introduced me to Quran 3:28, PROVING that Muslims are allowed to lie."
He strategically left out the context in his indoctrination, hence why you conspicuously ignore it even when it's pointed out to you. That part much reflect your old Mormonism proselytizing style.
Bruce wrote: "By the way"
lol
Bruce wrote: "that was the FIRST video I saw"
That YOU saw, huh. 🙄😏
Bruce wrote: "to get pulled off of YouTube... it was THAT video."
So? It's pretty easy to manipulate those sites if you have a dedicated mob of people to swarm them.
Bruce wrote: "Well, they do."
Right. 🙄
Bruce wrote: "Too me, it's not important where someone has come from"
I'll take that as a "yes," since your slipperiness is your most consistent trait. He's clearly Indian, since the 'grifting guru' slimeball figure is their number one export.
Bruce wrote: "and I'd listen to him if he were knowledgeable, and Chrisitan Prince is that."
You wanna be the next Alan Watts or whatever, huh? White people adore that 'grifting guru' model since the hippie era; you all lust to develop your own cult that blossoms into a cult-of-personality full-blown communist regime. Copying those grifting Indian dirtbags has been your favored, go-to template for at least 80 yrs now.
Bruce wrote: "You are calling the Bible 'random poetry.'"
I usually call it "fabricated corruptions."
Bruce wrote: "I forgot the reason as to why I responded with that scripture. Can you remind me why I would have said that?"
You confused me with your random foolishness, but you're asking me to explain it to you. If YOU don't know after you see I quoted you, how am I supposed to know?
Bruce wrote: "Right."
Right.
Bruce wrote: "But the 'before Scriptures' (Bible) also says God 'fills both heaven and earth"
God showed His 'Face' to the mountain and vaporized it, explaining to Moses (pbuh) that he couldn't bring His essence into the finite realm because it would unravel. But the Jewish scribes said he "fills both heaven and earth." Where did they get that claptrap from?
Bruce wrote: "whereas Allah comes down to the 'lowest heaven' every 'third part of the night.' And, since it is ALWAYS a 'third part of the night' SOMEwhere"
A great point, though it's best not to speculate over the unseen based only on the limited scope of what we know.
Bruce wrote: "Oh, and here is a video about it that I made"
Not a chance. Just looking at your gooey-doughy face in the thumbnail makes me want to start throwing sh*t...
Bruce wrote: "Where did I say you have to?"
Where did I say you said I had to? I said you present as if I should using your "cherry-picking" slur. I'll assume that your usual African prey blindly believe all of the hadith without reasonable discernment, which is why your (and 'christian prince's') anti-Islam rhetoric functions the way it does. And of course, why you keep saying "sahih" to me in that way despite what I explained about it. That's the thing about indoctrination; it's impossible to pivot and adjust with mental flexibility when an opponent has an argument that's different from what you were brainwashed on, amirite? 😉
Bruce wrote: "'seeking knowledge for one hour is better than praying for 70 years,' OR, I'd cherry pick 'contemplation for one hour is BETTER than 60 years of worship,' OR, I'd believe the 'the rank of a man of silence is BETTER than Divine Service.' But, I'm going to go for the 'seeking knowledge'"
This strongly implies that you actually lean atheist, if you think NOT worshiping God is superior to worshiping Him.
Bruce wrote: "Muslims accuse Christian Prince of knowing nothing about Islam all the time, so, I'll take that as a compliment. 🙂"
A trick-bag of sophistry rhetoric & fallacies used as a template that would work equally well on many believers if their knowledge is low, preferably on the nonpracticing "cultural theist" side.
Bruce Ramsey - M. Rasheed wrote: "Posting the verse you were referencing would have sufficed."
It's in the description of that video.
M. Rasheed wrote: "I can't imagine watching a video of you rant on about your pet nonsense after you literally ignored my posts (19/60) for three days and wasted my damned time. You have a lot of nerve."
I believe you. The thing is, the scripture of the Quran "explaining
EVERYTHING fully in detail" is in the description of that video.
M. Rasheed wrote: "Post the verse and let's see what it says together."
• Quran 10:37: "And not is this the Quran, that (it could be) produced by other than Allah" (wanna bed?), "but (it is) a confirmation (of that) which (from) between his hands and a detailed explanation (of) the Book, (there is) no doubt in it, from (the) Lord (of) the worlds".
• Quran 6:114: "Then is (it) other than Allah I seek (as) judge, while He (is) the One Who has revealed to you the Book explained in detail?" And those (to) whom We gave them the Book, they know that it (is) sent down from your Lord in truth" (you WISH, O "Allah"), "so (do) not be among the ones who doubt" (better said than done).
• Quran 16:89: "And the Day We will resurrect among every nation a witness over them from themselves. And We (will) bring you (as) a witness over these. And We sent down to you the Book (as) a clarification of every thing" (what was that, O "Allah"?) "And We sent down to you the Book (as) a clarification of every thing" (what was that, O "Allah"?) ("Allah" wimpering) "And We sent down to you the Book (as) a clarification of every thing" WHAT WAS THAT, O "Allah"?) *"Allah crying) "And We, sniff, sent down to you the Book (as) (snoff) a clarification of... (SAY IT!!!) "of.. (SAY IT!!!) (Allah crying violently) "every thing" (what was that, O "Allah"?) "and (whailing) "a guidance..." (no, that was enough... :))
• Quran 12:111: "Verily, (there) is in their stories a lesson for men (of) understanding. Not (it) is a narration invented, but a confirmation (of that) which (from) between his hands and a detailed explanation (of) all things," (WHAT was that last part?) (Allah wimpering again) "Not (it) is a narration invented, but a confirmation (of that) which (from) between his hands and a detailed explanation (of) all things," (WHAT was that last PART!?! Not (it) is a narration invented, but a confirmation (of that) which (from) between his hands and a detailed explanation (of) all things," (again... WHAT was that LAST PART!?!? (Allah crying): "Not (it) is a narration invented, but a confirmation (of that) which (from) between his hands and a detailed explanation (of) all things," (THANK you "best of deceivers"! THANK you!!!) "and a guidance and mercy for a people who believe". YOU show me the muddy spring with the sun setting in it, O Allah, and I MIGHT believe.
M. Rasheed wrote: "I'll just wait for you to post the verses in the chat. There's a lad."
I just posted them above. You don't want me to copy and past them down here, do you? I COULD, if you want me to.
M. Rasheed wrote: "Do you really believe he actually said that, too? Why?"
He also teaches in sahih (sound) that we go through a FORTY-Day blood clot stage as embryos where surah 96 is STILL called "The Clot", so, what do YOU think, sir? 🙂
M. Rasheed wrote: "Pretty sure they were groomed CIA/Mossad agents. But go off."
They probably were. I think ISIS was created by the CIA as well, and, Muslims, who didn't know that, joined ISIS thinking they were obeying Quran 9:111 and the FIRST part of Quran 4:24 (where the rape came into play).
M. Rasheed wrote: "lol My favorite part is when, even after you see the actual context of the verse you twisted beyond recognition,"
Put it in the RIGHT context then, OK?
M. Rasheed wrote: "you still go right back to your hate propaganda like it didn't even happen and I'm supposed to just believe your take on it."
Not just MY take on it, ANYONE who is truthful's take on it.
M. Rasheed wrote: "It's honestly like you have a demon puppetmaster's hand up your rectum, or something."
It's called a brain. And, it's not up my ass. 🙂
M. Rasheed wrote: "I'll assume you're reading that off of one of the hate memes in the FB chat, since the context of the verse doesn't say what you're implying."
What comes to your mind when you read to "kill and be killed" in the cause of Allah (Quran 9:38-39).
M. Rasheed wrote: "You think so?"
What they thought.
M. Rasheed wrote: "What's the difference between 'being slain' versus committing suicide?"
What do YOU think?
M. Rasheed wrote: "What does the Qur'an say about suicide and about killing innocent people during warfare and how does that align to the 'cause of Allah' exactly?"
Are you innocent in Islam if you aren't a Muslim with his patooti up in the air five times a day on a prayer rug? Check out Quran 98:6, please. WHO is the "worst of creatures"?
M. Rasheed wrote: "lol @ 'Afterall.' What is the 'Cause of Allah' exactly?"
Spreading Islam with the sword.
M. Rasheed wrote: "It's true. The martyrs will be at the highest level of heaven with the prophets."
Thus, the main motivation behind Quran 9:111, I mean, 9/11/01 (September 11th).
M. Rasheed wrote: "They are clearly linked. They both require the same amount of bravery, pretty much."
To say "sugar is sweet" infront of Saddam? Well, if you thought Saddam was paranoid and it was code to do him some harm, it WOULD be extremely brave of you to say that.
M. Rasheed wrote: "Blaming the cruel machinations of Western intelligence schemes in the Middle East on the Muslims is wild."
I bet you think it was just a HUGE coincidence that 9/11/01 would seem to fulfill Quran 9:111, true? 🙂
M. Rasheed wrote: "So, 3-days later you finally acknowledged what I posted continuously in response to you continuously saying the same thing over and over and over. wtf?"
It seemed like you were trying to hide from the fact that the Arabic was different between Hafs and Worsh versions of the Quran.
M. Rasheed wrote: "I don't know what all of this means; it looks like you got your silly self confused somewhere. The Worsh and Hafs are two different Arabic dialects — different from the hejazi dialect that the caliph wished to standardize."
So a change in meaning is a change in dialect to you? OK, I now accept that. But, it doesn't help your cause if you want to believe the Quran is perfectly preserved right down to the letter.
M. Rasheed wrote: "I don't understand why you are still confused over this. It's dumb."
I'm not confused anymore, that is for sure.
M. Rasheed wrote: "I used the 'youse guys/y'all' analogy to explain it for you, but you appear to be committed to foolishness."
There is no difference in meaning with the "youse guys/y'all", but, "he fought" is DIFFERENT in meaning to "he was killed". I believe you are smart enough to know this, sir.
M. Rasheed wrote: "A collected body of material from a bunch of random humans who are claiming their recitations are from the prophet of God should absolutely be sorted through and analyzed to determine which ones are real or not."
You mean, which ones a Muslim wants to believe and follow. Well, if I were a Muslim, you KNOW which ones I would want to follow. 🙂
M. Rasheed wrote: "The hostile and biased outsider may refer to this reasonable quality assurance process as 'cherry-picking' as he likes,"
True, but, you don't have to be hostile, just open minded.
M. Rasheed wrote: "since he can be fully expected to interpret any activities within this religion he hates in the most negative light he can conjure."
That is true and made easy to do when I see Muslims rejecting even sahih (sound) Bukari now, becoming Qurani (Quran only) before my eyes when I bring something up FROM Bukhari they find embarrassing.
M. Rasheed wrote: "No. Praying to God is the best way to get closer to Him—the more the believer prays,"
Thus, Mo was saying things off the top of his turban, got it, or, the hadiths can be cherry picked any which way you want, take your pick.
M. Rasheed wrote: "especially in the wee hours of the night, praying for forgiveness as a trait of the People of Excellence—is best, so obviously that hadith is false."
False to you, not to me. 🙂
M. Rasheed wrote: "I do understand how it can be attractive to the chronically lazy, or people who are full of themselves and secretly believe they are actually God's peer and don't need to pray or whatever else is going on in their sociopathic heads."
For sure.
M. Rasheed wrote: "We'll see."
M. Rasheed wrote: "I don't get it."
🙂
M. Rasheed wrote: "The entire point of burning those variant dialect Qur'ans was so the caliph could standardize the hejazi dialect version it was revealed in, so why are you excited about the other dialect variants again?"
Looks like the Worsh version escaped his burning command, right?
M. Rasheed wrote: "...and now you are AGAIN using wonky English translations to represent the changes in Arabic,"
Are the Arabic they were derived from "wonky" too you?
M. Rasheed wrote: "when the 19/60 screenshot proves the English translations of varying accuracy can falsely give an impression of a change in meaning within the Arabic itself."
IN THE ARABIC ITSELF!?!?! Say it ain't so.
M. Rasheed wrote: "I win."
You believe that, OK? 🙂
M. Rasheed wrote: "1.) It's not a change in the Arabic verse's meaning; that's an illusion cast by the poor English translation that your point is hinged upon. 2.) That's a false equivalency fallacy since your own Christian scholars admit that the bible's problems are not merely translation deviations, but the bible is a fabricated document written by anonymous authors to push various and often contradictory agendas."
IF so, then HOW can you believe in ALL the "books/scriptures of Allah" to keep from being "far astray" and "dragged off into hell fire" according to Quran 4:136, 150, 151, 152, 2:285 and 40:70-72 as a whole?
M. Rasheed wrote: "Sure."
😮
M. Rasheed wrote: "#Unserious."
You hope?
M. Rasheed wrote: "lol"
Right, the "you don't know anyting bout Islam" (even though Christian Prince is a Native Arabic speaker).
M. Rasheed wrote: "Huh?"
The "if you only knew Arabic, you'd know the Quran doesn't mean/say that" trick.
M. Rasheed wrote: "I know that the Muslims in these FB debate chat groups are mostly African, are pretty weak in their faith studies and are your usual prey, which is where your confidence and argument style comes from."
Sounds like you don't think much of the African mind. YOU have African background and I don't think you lack intelligence AT all. As a matter of fact, you are, perhaps, the smartest Muslim I have EVER communicated with, going so far as to take my sentences a part to question ME back. Do you know HOW rare that is? That is something I do all the time. YOU do it and actually THINK. That is SOOOO rare from a Muslim no matter WHAT color THEY are!!!
M. Rasheed wrote: "Schooling is compulsory for students all over the world. lol"
Do they get beaten and chained if they get something wrong in the classroom? YOU think that happens all over the world when Islam is NOT involved?
M. Rasheed wrote: "So, because you personally hate Islam, you think that group's compulsory education for their own students is abusive, huh?"
That isn't education, unless pressing record button on a tape recorder is "education" too you.
M. Rasheed wrote: "lol How am I supposed to take that comment seriously?"
I don't expect you to.
M. Rasheed wrote: "Compulsory education all over the globe is often learned by rote. lol But because you personally hate Islam, this particular learning by rote is wrong to you. What a worthless comment."
SOOOO many Muslims I talk to who can recite the Quran, don't know Arabic. Again, I say it is FAR... FAAAAAAAR better to STUDY the Quran IN the language you KNOW than to be a human tape recorder in a language you DON'T know.
M. Rasheed wrote: "Yeah? I've seen white police officers kill unarmed Black American children because they hated their ethnic group. Your fake moral high-horse is stupid."
Cops kill whites more than blacks, but, it never makes the news. Why do you think THAT is? Any guess?
M. Rasheed wrote: "You're literally committed to insulting my sacred belief system as the unrepentant hellbound, and you think your fake moral high-horse 'lecturing' will mean something to me. Curious"
I didn't know I was presenting much of a moral high-horse, just point things out here about Islam.
M. Rasheed wrote: "He's very knowledgeable about using sophistry tricks to confound poorly-studied Muslims and trapping them, you mean."
Can you give an example of that? SINCE you didn't know he was Arabic and asked if he was Indian, I'm taking it that you never heard of him and are just saying anything negative about him to try to protect Islam, a VERY Muslim thing to do.
M. Rasheed wrote: "He strategically left out the context in his indoctrination,"
How do YOU know when you thought he was Indian and not Arabic?
M. Rasheed wrote: "hence why you conspicuously ignore it even when it's pointed out to you."
Well, point it out to me... NOW!!! LOL! 🙂
M. Rasheed wrote: "That part must reflect your old Mormonism proselytizing style."
I was 12 when I left that belief.
M. Rasheed wrote: "That YOU saw, huh. 🙄😏"
No, the first video I saw yanked off of YouTube. You are now trying to change my words by leaving out what I say, right? And Muslims accuse ME of taking things out of context, wow.
M. Rasheed wrote: "So? It's pretty easy to manipulate those sites if you have a dedicated mob of people to swarm them."
So a swarm of Muslims got YouTube to remove that video? Yeah, I can see why. It's like the aliens in the movie, "They Live", trying to protect the machine that keeps humans in the dark that aliens run things.
M. Rasheed wrote: "Right. 🙄
M. Rasheed wrote: "I'll take that as a 'yes,' since your slipperiness is your most consistent trait."
How am I with the "slipperiness"? Give an example of my "slipperiness", please.
🙂
M. Rasheed wrote: "He's clearly Indian, since the 'grifting guru' slimeball figure is their number one export."
Well, Indians ARE a very smart people, it seems, so, I can see why you'd make that mistake. 🙂
M. Rasheed wrote: "You wanna be the next Alan Watts or whatever, huh?"
And drink myself to death on a boat in the San Francisco harbor? No thank you.
M. Rasheed wrote: "White people adore that 'grifting guru' model since the hippie era; you all lust to develop your own cult that blossoms into a cult-of-personality full-blown communist regime."
Oh man... you NAILED me... NOT. 🙂
M. Rasheed wrote: "Copying those grifting Indian dirtbags has been your favored, go-to template for at least 80 yrs now."
Christian Prince is pro-Trump, so I don't see where the pro-Communist comes into play. I mean, IF you were right about me, I'd be all for China Joe Biden.
M. Rasheed wrote: "I usually call it 'fabricated corruptions.'"
And yet, the Quran infers that it confirms it.
M. Rasheed wrote: "You confused me with your random foolishness, but you're asking me to explain it to you. If YOU don't know after you see I quoted you, how am I supposed to know?"
If I can't remember it, I won't see it as important.
M. Rasheed wrote: "Right. God showed His 'Face' to the mountain and vaporized it, explaining to Moses (pbuh) that he couldn't bring His essence into the finite realm because it would unravel."
And God lacks the power to turn His temperture down, true?
M. Rasheed wrote: "Where did they get that claptrap from?"
Where did I say the Jewish scribes said that?
M. Rasheed wrote: "A great point, though it's best not to speculate over the unseen based only on the limited scope of what we know."
Oh, so you DO believe old Allah comes down "every 3rd part of the night" to ask things only Allah can hear!?! REALLY!?!? Did you know it is ALWAYS a THIRD part of the night SOMEWHERE!?? So IF Muhammad is RIGHT about this, what does that make of the old "best of deceivers"? It means I'm RIGHT about giving Allah a 100th name... Al... Yoyo. THAT is what it means. For a yoyo goes up and down.
M. Rasheed wrote: "Not a chance. Just looking at your gooey-doughy face in the thumbnail makes me want to start throwing sh*t..."
Just don't throw your poo... DON'T throw it. And don't jump up and down shrieking as you THROW things. That would not be a pleasant scene.
M. Rasheed wrote: "Where did I say you said I had to? I said you present as if I should using your 'cherry-picking' slur. I'll assume that your usual African prey blindly believe all of the hadith without reasonable discernment, which is why your (and 'christian prince's') anti-Islam rhetoric functions the way it does."
I can imagine you'd hope so.
M. Rasheed wrote: "And of course, why you keep saying 'sahih' to me in that way despite what I explained about it."
I should believe YOU over "sunnahDotCom" because....?
M. Rasheed wrote: "That's the thing about indoctrination; it's impossible to pivot and adjust with mental flexibility when an opponent has an argument that's different from what you were brainwashed on, amirite?"
I think you have made that clear throughout our dialogues, sir.
M. Rasheed wrote: "This strongly implies that you actually lean atheist, if you think NOT worshiping God is superior to worshiping Him."
It depends on what kind of God to believe in, sir.
M. Rasheed wrote: "A trick-bag of sophistry rhetoric & fallacies used as a template that would work equally well on many believers if their knowledge is low, preferably on the nonpracticing 'cultural theist' side."
How do YOU know when you don't even know he's Arabic and not Indian?
Muhammad Rasheed -
I read mine in the English translation, hence why I understand it. #Surprise"
Muhammad Rasheed - Bruce wrote: "It's in the description of that video."
Be so kind as to post the verses in here, please. Thank you.
Bruce posted: "Quran 10:37: 'And not is this the Quran, that (it could be) produced by other than Allah' (wanna bed?)"
How much?
Bruce posted: "and a detailed explanation (of) the Book"
He's talking about the Book of Moses (pbuh) here.
Bruce posted: "Quran 6:114: 'Then is (it) other than Allah I seek (as) judge, while He (is) the One Who has revealed to you the Book explained in detail?'"
"The Book explained in detail." The Qur'an is the fuller, more detailed version of the Book of Moses. That's the context here.
Bruce posted: "'And We sent down to you the Book (as) a clarification of every thing' (what was that, O 'Allah?')"
Remember when Jesus (pbuh) said that he actually had more to teach, but he would have to leave that to the coming spirit of truth? In Marmaduke Pickthall's translation, he uses "exposition of all things" which more accurately points back to the context of clarifying everything in the Book of Moses.
Obviously, the Qur'an didn't mean "everything" in the most literal sense. Elementary.
Bruce wrote: "YOU show me the muddy spring with the sun setting in it, O Allah, and I MIGHT believe."
I'll admit I have little patience for people who play obtuse childish games. It's impossible to respect this performance. I've argued with many people over the years who've tried to pretend that metaphor was straight talk in clear, sloppy deception efforts to force a genuinely stupid point. You're either smart or you are not. You can't straddle that fence. Pick a side, please.
Bruce wrote: "I just posted them above."
I appreciate it. 🙂
Bruce wrote: "so, what do YOU think, sir? 🙂"
Those hadith are not real; the prophet didn't try to 'teach' about science stuff when he didn't have a clue. These were fabrications added to the sayings by individuals seeking cheat notoriety in the usual manner.
Bruce wrote: "and, Muslims, who didn't know that, joined ISIS thinking they were obeying Quran 9:111"
Yes, because their handlers were exactly like you and 'christian prince' whose job it was to twist the material to trick gullible kids into becoming terrorists for the Zionists and their unscrupulous allies to keep the Muslim world unstable for big corporate.
Bruce wrote: "Put it in the RIGHT context then, OK?"
I already did. Or were you not paying attention then either? As you will recall, Allah gave the believers permission to lie if our lives are in danger, or some other very serious situation is putting us under compulsion. It's not a catch-all 'lie whenever you want for whatever you want' the way you trolls keep saying.
Bruce wrote: "Not just MY take on it, ANYONE who is truthful's take on it."
Anyone who is truthful understands what "under compulsion" means and doesn't ignore it just because he's a deceitfully hateful piece of sh*t. You can't address Islam's claims head on with integrity because you would find yourself confronted with the Truth and you are genuinely frightened of it. It's your pride/ego that's keeping you from dealing with the material for real because you don't want to convert.
You're a coward.
Bruce wrote: "It's called a brain."
So, deliberately ignoring the context to force a false hate propaganda is called "using your brain" in your circles, huh?
Bruce Ramsey - Before I respond to what you wrote, I noticed that THIS fellow Cyber Crusader of mine is talking about the Quran saying it "explains
EVERYTHING fully in detail". I haven't seen all of this video, for I am in the process of cooking, but, too me, this guy is actually better than David Wood when it comes to deprogramming Muslims, and, again, in this video, he is talking about what you are talking about right now about the "explaining
EVERYTHING fully in detail"
[LINK] GodLogic Apologetics | YouTube
Muhammad Rasheed - Are you giving this to me because he's black?
Bruce Ramsey - No, because he's great at deprogramming. It's just a coincidence that he happens to be black.
Muhammad Rasheed - Why would I need a Christian apologist to explain my Qur'an to me? lol
Bruce Ramsey - You WATCH him, and you will see what I mean.
Anyway, I'll get back to you after cooking.
Muhammad Rasheed - It's funny that this "GodLogic Apologetics" character called into Muhammed Ali's channel (
The Muslim Lantern) and got his butt handed to him. His own followers are saying he embarrassed them with his sloppiness in his own comments. I'm surprised he even posted it on his channel.
He's just another sloppy Christian who's passing around the same packet of anti-Islam talking points pretending to know stuff like you and your 'christian prince' guru.
You're impressed with you all's grifting, sloppy performances, but I'm not.
Oh, okay, he didn't post his poor showing with Muhammed Ali after-all. He has it behind his Patreon paywall.
Muhammad Rasheed - Bruce wrote: "What comes to your mind when you read to 'kill and be killed' in the cause of Allah (Quran 9:38-39)."
What comes to your mind when you place the verses in the context of the time period? 300 fighting Muslim men, ill-prepared with shoddy equipment, as over 1,000 pagan Meccans were coming to wipe them out in the Battle of Badr. Obviously, they were terrified, so how do those verses sound in context?
Bruce wrote: "What they thought."
The biased and hostile outsider who has zero respect for the religion, nor the people, wants to tell me what these people he hates from 1400 yrs ago thought. 🤨
Bruce wrote: "What do YOU think?"
It's not a riddle. What does Allah say about suicide, and how does that compare to "being slain" while fighting for Allah's cause during the war effort?
Bruce wrote: "Are you innocent in Islam if you aren't a Muslim with his patooti up in the air five times a day on a prayer rug?"
You ducked my question again. What does the Qur'an say about suicide and about killing innocent people during warfare and how does that align to the "cause of Allah" exactly?
Bruce wrote: "Check out Quran 98:6, please. WHO is the 'worst of creatures?'"
98:6 says that the man who believes he doesn't need God and is somehow self-sufficient has transgressed all bounds. How does this answer the question above?
Bruce wrote: "Spreading Islam with the sword."
Islam wasn't spread with the sword. That's an old, long debunked myth. Here's the definitive, groundbreaking proof:
Bruce wrote: "It seemed like you were trying to hide from the fact that the Arabic was different between Hafs and Worsh versions of the Quran."
How would that be, when you yourself were using the differences in the English translation as your shorthand proof that the Arabic was different in meaning? The "youse guys/y'all" example showed why differences in the Arabic dialects would show in the writing, and the 19/60 screenshot showed why the wonky English translations didn't mean that the original Arabic meaning had changed, just the translated interpretation.
Bruce wrote: "Are you innocent in Islam if you aren't a Muslim with his patooti up in the air five times a day on a prayer rug?"
As long as you, as a non-Muslim, aren't persecuting people and causing mischief in the land, the Muslims are commanded to be at Peace with you and leave you be. Your lack of innocence as a disbeliever will be dealt with on Judgment Day, not by the believers.
Bruce wrote: "Sounds like you don't think much of the African mind."
Those are the guys who sold me to the Dutch East India Trading Company, and now they've sent their immigrants over to collude with their old white supremacist business partners to sabotage the latest version of my freedom struggle.
Bruce wrote: "YOU have African background"
My people are 400 years removed from Africa. We are a new people, a new ethnic group — the American Descendants of Slavery. I'm not African.
Bruce wrote: "That is SOOOO rare from a Muslim no matter WHAT color THEY are!!!"
You just need to get out more. These cliques within these FB chats are the call center level dudes. This is obviously your and 'christian prince's' comfort zone.
Bruce wrote: "Do they get beaten and chained if they get something wrong in the classroom? YOU think that happens all over the world when Islam is NOT involved?"
My daughter's ex-fiancé and his younger brother were from Senegal, and they expressed the same type of strict schooling from the old country. They were Christians. Africa is huge and you'll find every single mix-matched type of lifestyle imaginable there. If one group is doing a particular thing, you can best believe another different group is doing that same thing somewhere else.
Bruce wrote: "That isn't education, unless pressing record button on a tape recorder is 'education' too you."
There's levels to education, of course. People start out at the rote memorization drills stage as a 'pupil.' Then they build up from there.
Bruce wrote: "SOOOO many Muslims I talk to who can recite the Quran, don't know Arabic."
Not surprising. The next stages are for those choosing an Islamic Studies major of some type, that requires some form of push in that direction. Many people have dreams of doing other stuff and never progress much beyond their pupil rote drills in the subjects they didn't choose. This is normal.
Bruce wrote: "Again, I say it is FAR... FAAAAAAAR better to STUDY the Quran IN the language you KNOW than to be a human tape recorder in a language you DON'T know."
Agreed, on the self-study level. I personally memorize the English translation first for understanding, before I start puzzling out the Arabic side. If I was a part of the formal Qur'an memorization club, then I would just do it their way though, since that job is strictly for preservation duty which is clearly a holy honor.
Right now, I have way too much other stuff in my head that would probably get in the way of the task.
Bruce Ramsey - I'll answer you tomorrow. I'm going to bed now.
Don't worry, I'll respond back.
You didn't waste your time writing to me, I WILL respond tomorrow.
Muhammad Rasheed - Insha'Allah.
Bruce wrote: "Cops kill whites more than blacks, but, it never makes the news. Why do you think THAT is? Any guess?"
1.) Cops humanize white citizens and demonize Black citizens. That means the whites they kill were really hardened criminals and the cops had no other choice and genuinely feared for their lives.
2.) Whites HATE being told what to do by authority figures in general and are very hypocritical when it comes to their "just comply to what the cop is telling you!" advice to Black people, since whites are MOST likely to get all belligerent during a confrontation with police. They get all SUPER-PATRIOT! acting and "I KNOW MY RIGHTS AND THIS IS AGAINST THE CONSTITUTION!" and start acting like they are invincible. The poorer they are, the worse they act. The cops are not trying to kill their own people, but their own people are savages and often leave them little choice in the matter of a kill or be killed scenario.
3.) Naturally, the white-owned media can't fill the news programs up with all the David Koresh/Cliven Bundy type standoffs that lead to regular bloodbaths across the country, because it will reveal an embarrassing true narrative of who the real face of American Crime is.
Bruce wrote: "just point things out here about Islam."
By ignoring the context of the verses and trying to isolate a verse twisted into hate propaganda. That's "pointing things out" in your universe, hm? Knowing that the hadith aren't the religion's scriptural text from God, but represent a mixture of both testimony accounts, irresponsible gossip and even outright fabrications by the clout-chasers of the day, but you think "pointing things out" is by cherry-picking the least plausible material and highlighting it while accusing Muslims of cherry-picking for highlighting the material that actually aligns to the message the prophet preached.
I understand you don't believe in the religion at all, but your approach is neither objective, nor scholarly. You're a hate propagandist.
Bruce wrote: "Can you give an example of that?"
The example comes from you, his self-confessed protégé. This describes your actual rhetoric style which I assume you got wholly from him since you admit you didn't stick with Mormonism long enough to take on their signature proselytizing.
Bruce wrote: "SINCE you didn't know he was Arabic and asked if he was Indian"
Bah! He could just as easily have come from Pakistan or Egypt performing the same tricks. It's not like India has a monopoly on the techniques, that's just the group I personally most often associate with white men being infatuated with the exotic "guru" figure and their "special knowledge" or whatever you said.
Bruce wrote: "I'm taking it that you never heard of him"
Not once.
Bruce wrote: "and are just saying anything negative about him to try to protect Islam, a VERY Muslim thing to do."
I'm saying very negative things about him because you sing his praises, called him your mentor and my experience with your rhetoric has been very negative.
Bruce wrote: "How do YOU know when you thought he was Indian and not Arabic?"
lol How do I know 'christian prince' left out the context of 3:28 with his indoctrinating "instruction?" Because his protégé leaves out the context every time he brings up 'taqiyya' and pretends Allah gives the believers full carte blanche to lie whenever we feel the whim—and you CONTINUED to do so even after I took the time to explain the context. THAT'S how I know. Neither you nor your mentor are serious individuals.
Who is most well-known for isolating a single verse out of their own scripture and conjuring an entirely new ideology around it that not only directly contradicts the context of the surrounding verses, but also the primary message of the Abrahamic faiths, yet they weirdly decide to believe it with their entire heart & soul?
Christians do that clown sh*t ALL THE TIME, and have the nerve to clutch their pearls in mock indignation when people with actual sense reject their attempts to perform that circus act with the Noble Qur'an. Get the f*ck out of here.
Bruce wrote: "So a swarm of Muslims got YouTube to remove that video?"
Probably. Why not?
Bruce wrote: "Yeah, I can see why."
If you have the ability in shear unified numbers to remove lies/negativity about your sacred belief system being promoted as fact, why wouldn't you exercise your power? Makes sense to me. The Internet would definitely be a better place without its patented hate propaganda infesting the good stuff.
Bruce wrote: "How am I with the 'slipperiness?'"
You may know it in the colloquial as "question ducking," of which you appear to hold a high-ranking black belt. "Wa-TAH!!!!"
Bruce wrote: "Well, Indians ARE a very smart people, it seems"
To each his own, I guess.
Bruce wrote: "And drink myself to death on a boat in the San Francisco harbor? No thank you."
lol
Bruce wrote: "Oh man... you NAILED me... NOT. 🙂"
Yeah, right. You don't fool me, Ramsey. So, you're supposed to be the ONLY white dude ever who doesn't lust after that in his secret heart-of-hearts? Come on.
Bruce wrote: "Christian Prince is pro-Trump, so I don't see where the pro-Communist comes into play."
End-state Communism ends the same way non-government regulated capitalism ends — with a wealthy, Über-powerful clique at the top running things. Under the monopolized failed capitalism version, it's still technically possible for a pioneering little guy to find a Blue Ocean Concept and climb the ranks somehow. Under end-state Communism it would be impossible, their ranks thoroughly closed to new blood. I think the entire, bipartisan 1% grifter class (at ALL levels) would prefer the Communism version, no matter what they may say during their current fake gameplay.
Bruce wrote: "And yet, the Quran infers that it confirms it."
The Qur'an only confirms that Allah revealed His message to the previous prophets, too. Note that the Jewish scriptures remained as an oral song passed down through the generations for thousands of years before they finally decided to write it down, an ambitious project that wasn't completed until after the rise of Islam. They were actually still struggling with it when James I, King of England and Ireland, reached out to them to solicit their help with the Old Testament portion of his signature bible version. It's pretty clear that Allah was never talking about the physical book you all hold which went through quite a few changes from the oral to the written during that process.
Bruce wrote: "If I can't remember it, I won't see it as important."
lol Arguing on the Internet isn't important. It's just a hobby. Relax.
Bruce wrote: "And God lacks the power to turn His temperture down, true?"
No, that's ignorant. What's clear is that He didn't want to do that.
Bruce wrote: "Where did I say the Jewish scribes said that?"
So, that line comes from the NT? That's even worse.
Bruce wrote: "Oh, so you DO believe old Allah comes down 'every 3rd part of the night'"
I've honestly never questioned it and actually found a measure of comfort in the concept. Now that you've called me out, I looked to see if it was reflected in the Qur'an, too, but it wasn't. It was inspired by ayats 51:17-18 which has its focus on the believers performing in excellence and not on God's movement.
Bruce wrote: "Just don't throw your poo..."
You're not the boss of me. 😠
Bruce wrote: "I can imagine you'd hope so."
It's certainly how you've performed in this thread, and since you've referred to 'christian prince' as your mentor, I've concluded that you've lifted your style from him.
Bruce wrote: "I should believe YOU over 'sunnah[DOT]com' because....?"
lol Obviously, sunnahDotCom doesn't bother to define the concept, and even if it did, you'd still ignore it to present 'sahih' as if it meant something other than its actual definition since your entire shtick is hinged upon that deception.
Bruce wrote: "I think you have made that clear throughout our dialogues, sir. "
Have I?
Bruce wrote: "It depends on what kind of God to believe in, sir."
There is only One God. The choice is to believe in Him, or to believe in foolishness. There is no third option.
Bruce wrote: "How do YOU know when you don't even know he's Arabic and not Indian?"
Because you are his protégé who uses his style as a template for your own rhetoric. After several days of trading with you, I have a pretty good bead on how you operate.
Bruce Ramsey - M. Rasheed wrote: "Probably. Why not?"
Well, it IS the only way Islam can be defended. 🙂
M. Rasheed wrote: "If you have the ability in shear unified numbers to remove lies/negativity about your sacred belief system being promoted as fact, why wouldn't you exercise your power?"
The power to defend the indefensible (i.e. Islam)? How about, having an open mind to those with differing oppinions just in case you are wrong and wasting your PRECIOUS time with your patooti in the air five times a day, EVERY day, for the REST of your life, bowing down to a pagan Arab WORSHIP rock you swear you don't worship yourself?
M. Rasheed wrote: "Makes sense to me."
Yep.
M. Rasheed wrote: "The Internet would definitely be a better place without its patented hate propaganda infesting the good stuff."
How is pointing out flaws in a religion "hate propaganda"?
M. Rasheed wrote: "You may know it in the colloquial as 'question ducking,' of which you appear to hold a high-ranking black belt. 'Wa-TAH!!!!'"
What question have I ever ducked? 🙂
M. Rasheed wrote: "(Rasheed shows an Indian Temple that worships rats to try to show that Indians aren't that smart after all). Word? 😒 To each his own, I guess."
Is that a Jewish Temple? According to Muhammad in sahih (sound) hadith, rats used to be human Jews until Allah transformed them into RATS! Well, guess what? IF Muhammad is right, then rats are STILL Jewish because old Mo ALSO said that you can KNOW that Allah transformed Jews into RATS because if you put out a saucer of camel milk out, the rats won't drink it KNOWING that camel milk is not Kosher, but will drink SHEEP milk because they know that sheep milk IS Kosher. If you want to see the hadith for that, here are some videos that call attention to it that I made:
[LINK] another bruce video_01 | Bitchute and [LINK] another bruce video_02 | Bitchute
By the way, DUE to Muhammad saying that about rats being Jewish, one need not test to see if Mr. (pbuh) was a TRUE prophet by endangering one's life with a spoonful of cyanide after eating "7 ajwa dates in the morning" WHICH (according to old Mo) will PROTECT you all day from both MAGIC and... POISON (a spoonful of cyanide could test that and make it all final for you either way if swallowed AFTER eating those CERTAIN amount of dates). Thus, if you REALLY wanted to see if Mo was a TRUE prophet and you AREN'T wasting your life away with patooti in the air, YOU could get a Jew, I mean, RAT, a LITERAL rat, AND... if there was NO camel milk around to SEE if it would drink it or not, you COULD get a piece of pork, wait a few hours to see if the Jew, ahh, I mean, RAT, becomes hungry, then PUT the piece of pork before it. AND... if it IS Jewish and Mo WASN'T just saying something stupid and antisemitic off the top of his turban, the Jew, I mean, RAT, WON'T eat the pork. But, I yet to see a video of a Muslim making such a video. It could easily be faked if he fed the Jew, I mean, RAT, a LOT of cheese before presenting. the pork. When the Jew/rat refused to eat the pork due to being stuffed, the Muslim could yell out, "Mashed ALLAH! Mr. (pbuh) IS a true PROPHET!" And, after making that video, hope to Allah that David Wood didn't see that video and ended up using a HUNGRY rat with pork. I mean, if I were a Muslim and I saw a rat eating pork, I'd think the rat WASN'T Jewish, but, that Allah transformed a MUSLIM into a rat and that the rat was being starved BY David Wood, allowing that rat through Allah's grace to EAT that pork due to "being forced". Still, if you wanted to be truthful, O Muslim... GET a rat, put a piece of pork in its cage, a piece of pork such as a chicharone, and, see if Muhammad was a true prophet when the rat didn't eat it, KNOWING that it wasn't kosher TO eat it, thus, the rat IS possibly Jewish LIKE Mo said.
M. Rasheed wrote: "lol"
🙂
M. Rasheed wrote: "Yeah, right. You don't fool me, Ramsey."
Oh no... really? 🙁
M. Rasheed wrote: "So, you're supposed to be the ONLY white dude ever who doesn't lust after that in his secret heart-of-hearts? Come on."
LOL! OK, OK... ah... is there a pillow to sit on while he spouts off sayings of Lao Tzu? You know, the lowzy guy? 🙂
M. Rasheed wrote: "End-state Communism ends the same way non-government regulated capitalism ends — with a wealthy, Über-powerful clique at the top running things."
The WEF? The guy with the Bond Villan accent, Claus Schwab?
M. Rasheed wrote: "Under the monopolized failed capitalism version, it's still technically possible for a pioneering little guy to find a Blue Ocean Concept and climb the ranks somehow. Under end-state Communism it would be impossible, their ranks thoroughly closed to new blood. I think the entire, bipartisan 1% grifter class (at ALL levels) would prefer the Communism version, no matter what they may say during their current fake gameplay."
That fake gameplay got most of the population to put an experimental shot into their arms, with God knows what the long term side effects will bring. Even people I took for intelligent fell under such a spell. Blacks, I noticed, were the smart ones, mostly, to NOT fall for that rape. And, it was a rape, for you don't know if the shot was shooting blanks (saline coaxer), or the REAL thing (that closes arteries and what not).
M. Rasheed wrote: "The Qur'an only confirms that Allah revealed His message to the previous prophets, too."
So, with Quran 10:94, IF you are in DOUBT about that, go to ME for my READING the "before Scriptures" and I'll say, "by golley, Allah is ONE... ah, I bet you never heard THAT before, aye, Abdul?" I'll say that and NOT talk about how Jesus' death on the cross for sins makes sense of all the craziness in the Old Testement, true? Well, "Allah" is very trusting of "worst of creatures", that is for sure. 🙂
M. Rasheed wrote: "Note that the Jewish scriptures remained as an oral song passed down through the generations for thousands of years before they finally decided to write it down,"
Supposedly the Book of Job is the oldest book in the Bible. The thing is, the Dead Sea Scrolls were composed 200 years before Christ, and what survived mostly matches the meaning of what is in the Bible. Yet, when the Quran was "handed down", surah 2:106 and another scripture about abrogation was NOT activated to abrogate all those pro-Bible sounding scriptures in the Quran. Instead of telling Muslims to avoid the "worst of creatures" who READ the Bible, it has Quran 10:94. You'd think Quran 10:94 would have been abrogated with the good graces of surah 2:106 and the other scripture I'm thinking. of.
M. Rasheed wrote: "an ambitious project that wasn't completed until after the rise of Islam."
You think the "Injeel" was written AFTER the rise of Islam?!? But, I thought it was a "book given to prophet Issa son of Mary"?
M. Rasheed wrote: "They were actually still struggling with it when James I, King of England and Ireland, reached out to them to solicit their help with the Old Testament portion of his signature bible version."
Which matches what remains of the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Book of Isaiah with chapter 53 which makes NOOOO sense if Christianity is false.
M. Rasheed wrote: "It's pretty clear that Allah was never talking about the physical book you all hold which went through quite a few changes from the oral to the written during that process."
Dead Sea Scrolls, anyone? But, say you are right. That they were corrupted by Saint Paul. IF that is true, HOW can TWO scriptures in the "clear book", the "clear signs", the "book that explains
EVERYTHING fully in detail" be TRUE about Jesus and HIS followers being "uppermost unto the day of resurrection" and THEY being the ones who prevail? Seems that it is the Jesus and followers of PAUL who fit those scriptures since Muslims tell me the "Injeel" was corrupted by Saint Paul. 🙂
M. Rasheed wrote: "lol arguing on the Internet isn't important. It's just a hobby. Relax."
Ok. Oh, by the way. I like how you are being selective with what I wrote. However, IF I were to do the same thing, I have a feeling you would accuse me of ignoring anything you wrote that GREATLY supported Islam. 🙂
M. Rasheed wrote: "No, that's ignorant. What's clear is that He didn't want to do that."
Not if you study the "Injeel".
M. Rasheed wrote: "So, that line comes from the NT? That's even worse."
I'm not sure what you mean.
M. Rasheed wrote: "I've honestly never questioned it"
REALLY!?! You NEVER questioned it?!? Man, I thought you were smart.
M. Rasheed wrote: "and actually found a measure of comfort in the concept."
Because you believe the earth is flat, and a 3rd part of the night only happens once every 24 hours?
M. Rasheed wrote: "Now that you've called me out,"
No, I think you did that yourself, sir.
M. Rasheed wrote: "I looked to see if it was reflected in the Qur'an, too, but it wasn't."
Whew! Aren't you GLAD?!?
M. Rasheed wrote: "It was inspired by ayats 51:17-18 which has its focus on the believers performing in excellence and not on God's movement."
I'll have to check that out. Quran 51:17-18: They used to little of the night [what] sleep. 51:18 And in the hours before dawn they would ask forgiveness." Well, I can see how that would inspire Mo in the hadith to say what he said. That scripture is far more science and logic friendly than the hadith, that is for sure.
M. Rasheed wrote: "You're not the boss of me. 😠"
Well, I'm not cleaning it up. 🙂
M. Rasheed wrote: "It's certainly how you've performed in this thread, and since you've referred to 'christian prince' as your mentor, I've concluded that you've lifted your style from him."
I've never really had much of a chance to. How are you with video interaction? I bet you are better at it than myself. If you watch my videos, I'm very poor at it. I only shine when it's comment stuff. In writing when it comes to Islam, I'm like dee Drago of dee pen. Vot ewer I write, uh...I dees-TROY.
M. Rasheed wrote: "lol Obviously, sunnahDotCom doesn't bother to define the concept, and even if it did, you'd still ignore it to present 'sahih' as if it meant something other than its actual definition since your entire shtick is hinged upon that deception."
Hey, I bring up the hadith because there STILL are a lot of Sunni Muslims who haven't become Qurani like YOU, sir.
M. Rasheed wrote: "Have I?"
I don't remember the reason for my making that remark, sorry.
M. Rasheed wrote: "There is only One God. The choice is to believe in Him, or to believe in foolishness. There is no third option."
I bet you feel that saying a prayer before entering the bathroom with your left foot, so Satan doesn't play with your butt is NOT foolishness, true? Oh wait, you're a Qurani now. Well, I bet the sky being "without cracks" yet can crack and fall on you without the power of Allah holding it up is NOT foolishness to YOU, true? 🙂
M. Rasheed wrote: "Because you are his protégé who uses his style as a template for your own rhetoric."
I have no idea since I have HARDLY ever got to have a face to voice encounter with a Muslim, yet. CP does that all the time.
M. Rasheed wrote: "After several days of trading with you, I have a pretty good bead on how you operate."
I'm betting I'd do very poorly. I only shine when I write. Without pen or keyboard, I'm a blithering idiot. It's kind of like a savant sort of thing, where the vegetable boy sits and slobbers cross-eyed into the void of space until you give him a piano keyboard, then he starts playing ethereal New Age music that causes people to cry with wonder, believing that God might be tickling the keyboard through his stubby booger covered fingers. Check out my videos and you will have a HUGE amount of confidence try to debate me so you can feel like Allah is descending down upon you with the 72 virgins as you make me your bitch through face-to-face bantor. You watch my videos and you will BEG that you debate me face to face, or, something like that. 🙂
Muhammad Rasheed - Bruce wrote: "Well, it IS the only way Islam can be defended. 🙂"
lol I've never had an issue defending my faith. Al-Islam has the benefit of Truth and a uniquely preserved scripture on our side.
Bruce wrote: "The power to defend the indefensible (i.e. Islam)?"
There is no god but the One God, do good, reject evil, repent when you mess up — this is indefensible? 🤔
Bruce wrote: "How about, having an open mind to those with differing oppinions"
An open-mind to opinions that deliberately ignore scriptural context in perfect imitation of a carny grifter? lol An open-mind to biased outsider opinions that can only make sense if I ignore the text hierarchy in my own religion? No. That's would be silly and unreasonable.
Bruce wrote: "just in case you are wrong"
I've been having these regular religious debates online since 2005. You all use the same hive-mind talking points with the only difference being in the style of delivery. The truth of Al-Islam remains undefeated.
Bruce wrote: "and wasting your PRECIOUS time with your patooti in the air five times a day, EVERY day, for the REST of your life"
Worshiping the All-Powerful Master of Judgment Day—Who has a heaven & hell to put me in—in the way He commands it be performed is a waste of time? 🤨
Bruce wrote: "bowing down to a pagan Arab WORSHIP rock you swear you don't worship yourself?"
So, your version of having an open-mind means to willingly ignore what is real to be a damned fool. Again, no, thank you.
Bruce wrote: "How is pointing out flaws in a religion 'hate propaganda?'"
Pretending something is a flaw by using sophistry tricks & fallacies in order to disparage a religion you don't like is the very definition of hate propaganda.
Bruce wrote: "What question have I ever ducked? 🙂"
The ones I ask. You hate them.
Bruce wrote: "to show that Indians aren't that smart after all"
Worshiping anything other than the One God is inherently stupid.
Bruce wrote: "According to Muhammad in sahih (sound) hadith"
This is a fiction.
Bruce wrote: "If you want to see the hadith for that"
??? Why would I care about the hadith that don't align to the Qur'an? No, thanks. THAT would be the waste of my time, not making salat.
Bruce wrote: "By the way, DUE to Muhammad saying that about"
Why do you believe he actually said it?
Muhammad Rasheed -
The "BEST attested" out of a bunch of poorly-attested documents is about what? 2% out of 100%?
Congrats, I guess.
lol
Bruce wrote: "the Muslim could yell out, 'Mashed ALLAH! Mr. (pbuh) IS a true PROPHET!'"
The Qur'an itself is proof that Muhammad (pbuh) was a true prophet, which includes the well-known fulfilled prophecy of the Byzantines vs the Persians, so why would the Muslims need to go though all of this 'rat-test' thingy anyway? The prophet's reputation during his lifetime was one of impeccable honesty as he embodied the "spirit of truth" as Jesus (pbuh) called him (John 16:13).
Bruce wrote: "LOL! OK, OK... ah... is there a pillow to sit on while he spouts off sayings of Lao Tzu? You know, the lowzy guy? 🙂"
I'm sure you'll have your own special style when you do it.
Bruce wrote: "So, with Quran 10:94, IF you are in DOUBT about that, go to ME"
No, Allah is telling the prophet to go to the children of Israel about their history, which was the context referencing their story in 10:93. At no time did Allah tell the prophet to go to the Christians to ask y'all anything, since Allah said you lost most of the Christ's Gospel message. So, what would YOU know? Stop inserting yourself into that ayat, please.
Bruce wrote: "I'll say that and NOT talk about how Jesus' death on the cross for sins makes"
I'll just let you talk yourself out until you fall over and take a nap. You see how silly you look when you isolate verses out of their actual context? No? To you, having an open mind means a lack of textual context. You may keep it. That way contains madness.
Bruce wrote: "and what survived"
Those postage stamp sized fragments? Those? You all frequently make bold claims about that material that doesn't match the physical evidence. It's like, alongside your regular delusions, you think you see a magically complete DSS Bible when you talk. Does having an open mind also involve hallucinations?
Bruce wrote: "You'd think Quran 10:94 would have been abrogated with the good graces of surah 2:106 and the other scripture I'm thinking."
The Qur'an abrogates the previous scriptures, that's why it's the fuller explanation of everything in the Book of Moses (pbuh). That's what 2:106 is referring to.
Bruce wrote: "You think the 'Injeel' was written AFTER the rise of Islam?!? But, I thought it was a 'book given to prophet Issa son of Mary?'"
The Injil is the revelation preached by Jesus (pbuh) during his earthly lifetime, a book that is now lost since the Christ's scant followers didn't bother to write down what the messenger told them.
The New Testament cannot pretend to be the Injil of Jesus since your own scholars admit it is a fabricated document written by anonymous authors pushing various and often contradictory agendas, most of which is centered upon Greco-Roman era paganism which both Allah and the messiah eschews.
Bruce wrote: "Which matches what remains of the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Book of Isaiah with chapter 53 which makes NOOOO sense if Christianity is false."
So, little tiny pieces of the OT match some of the little tiny pieces of the DSS. Okay. lol
The Jews recognize the DSS as heretical anyway, so obviously they don't match.
Bruce wrote: "But, say you are right. That they were corrupted by Saint Paul."
By Paul who initiated the scheme of inserting Greco-Roman paganism into the message to make it more attractive to the gentiles whose favor he courted, and then canonized by the Greco-Roman pagan influenced Councils of Constantine (who continued to worship Apollo until his death).
Bruce wrote: "IF that is true, HOW can TWO scriptures"
You mean verses/ayats? Or do you all normally use 'scripture' synonymous with 'verse?' Is this a thing? I assumed "scripture" meant a whole book or epistle? No?
Everything in the Book of Moses (pbuh) as we discussed, Mr. Open-Mind. Your commitment to stubbornly holding onto your very wrong understanding about Islam while scolding me about having a mind open to soiling Truth with known falsehood is pretty wild. lol
Bruce wrote: "be TRUE about Jesus and HIS followers being 'uppermost unto the day of resurrection' and THEY being the ones who prevail?"
Jesus had a total of about 15-20 followers who submitted their wills to 'The Father' Whom the Christ worshiped as the Only True God, and it is they who have the esteem of their Guardian Lord for their goodly service and will prevail until the Resurrection event, and will be raised to positions of honor on Judgment Day. Literally NO ONE is talking about you pagan Pauline feebs.
lol There were probably more True Followers of the Christ (Muslims!) who followed the messiah's younger brother James the Just. So, between Jesus' maximum 20 and James' maybe 100-200(?), those are the actual followers of the Christ who will prevail in God's Favor until the Resurrection.
Bruce wrote: "Ok. Oh, by the way. I like how you are being selective with what I wrote."
Of course, I am. It's not like you don't repeat yourself and even write extensive skits that function as strawmen effigies that don't have a real point I'm bound to address. If I skip something that you really would like my opinion on it, then just isolate it with emphasis for my attention.
Bruce wrote: "I have a feeling you would accuse me of ignoring anything you wrote that GREATLY supported Islam. 🙂"
You've already proven to ignore my explanations in preference of continuing to parrot 'christian prince's' talking points (see: sahih (sound) & EVERYTHING FULLY), so why would I get upset that you didn't take anything else I wrote seriously? I can't make you care about something you self-brainwashed yourself into hating. I just appreciate a new opponent's style that enables me to present my points in a different angle that helps me learn Al-Islam even better. Like how regularly teaching the basics of a given subject can help the teacher master the material better while he instructs. I love that.
Bruce wrote: "Not if you study the 'Injeel.'"
The Injil is in the Qur'an. You certainly don't have it. You allowed Paul and them to replace it with Greco-Roman era paganism, remember?
Bruce wrote: "I'm not sure what you mean."
God said the Christians forgot most of their book, but at least the Jews still have a portion of theirs.
Bruce wrote: "REALLY!?! You NEVER questioned it?!? Man, I thought you were smart."
It never had any relevance in my life to give it that thought since it's only an abstract concept. This is actually the first time the topic has come up in discussion for me forcing me to actually focus on it, hence the value in regular discussion with game opponents.
Bruce wrote: "Because you believe the earth is flat, and a 3rd part of the night only happens once every 24 hours?"
lol No, because the idea of God coming closer with special favor for those who were willing to put in the extra effort is inherently attractive to my personality type.
Bruce wrote: "No, I think you did that yourself, sir."
You definitely called me out on a sub-topic I'd never seriously considered before.
Bruce wrote: "Whew! Aren't you GLAD?!?"
I am now. lol
Bruce wrote: "Well, I can see how that would inspire Mo in the hadith to say what he said."
Why do you believe he actually said it?
Bruce wrote: "Well, I'm not cleaning it up. 🙂"
Well, I guess you'll just be living & sleeping in poop then. 😠
Bruce wrote: "I've never really had much of a chance to."
I mean, his argument style in general, not his video influencer personality stuff.
Bruce wrote: "How are you with video interaction? I bet you are better at it than myself."
Nah. I only do videos to provide official creator commentary for my cartoons to help counter my ideological foes penchant for pretending they mean whatever foolishness they conjure.
Bruce wrote: "If you watch my videos, I'm very poor at it. I only shine when it's comment stuff. In writing when it comes to Islam, I'm like dee Drago of dee pen. Vot ewer I write, uh...I dees-TROY."
That's because your comfort zone is trapping and beating up on these little Africans who barely have a grasp on English, unless you happen to be fluent in Igbo, or Swahili.
Bruce wrote: "Hey, I bring up the hadith because there STILL are a lot of Sunni Muslims who haven't become Qurani like YOU, sir."
The Qurani sect doesn't believe in the hadith at all. I think that's demonstrably stupid, both to take that position AND to be in a sect. I'm a Muslim, who believes in both the Qur'an as well as those hadith that align to it. This is the Straight Way.
Bruce wrote: "so Satan doesn't play with your butt"
🙄
Bruce wrote: "Well, I bet the sky being 'without cracks' yet can crack and fall on you without the power of Allah holding it up is NOT foolishness to YOU, true? 🙂"
Is this another one of the Qur'an's poetic metaphors you're trying to pretend is a literal narrative?
Bruce wrote: "I have no idea since I have HARDLY ever got to have a face to voice encounter with a Muslim, yet. CP does that all the time."
Doesn't mean you don't write mimicking his style in your keyboard warrior expression.
Bruce wrote: "I'm betting I'd do very poorly. I only shine when I write. Without pen or keyboard, I'm a blithering idiot."
I'm only talking about writing; I have zero interest in the face-to-face stuff the guys do at London's Speaker's Corner. Even though it's fun to watch, I have little patience with people shouting over each other. At least in a chat thread, we can always scroll up and see what we missed in the opponent's post. For high-knowledge interaction/exchange, writing is 100% superior to the face-to-face argument.
Bruce wrote: "with the 72 virgins"
That talking point was invented by mocking Christian conservatives who, somewhere along the way, forgot that they are the ones who made it up to mock us.
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