Monday, June 5, 2017

Sibling Rivalry

Salman Khan - Mankind was presumably unable to produce "anything like" a certain portion of the Qur'an, thus proving it is the word of Allah. Is that a valid claim?

Whether some text is “like” some other text is obviously subjective. If there is no objective method to determine that one text is like another text, then the claim must be false. Does this not therefore prove the opposite of what is claimed?

Muhammad Rasheed - All you'd have to do is pull the bulleted known facts from the Qur'an's history and use them as a checklist, seeking to duplicate the Qur'an by matching the conditions that produced it. This would be a reasonably objective contest despite your complaints.

For example, the Qur'an was:

1.) preached from the mouth of an illiterate man with no formal schooling at all.
2.) revealed in a single segmented draft over a 22 year period into a completed work without revisions.
3.) preached by a man who was known by all who knew him best as being so honest, his nickname was "the trustworthy."
4.) received with such reverence, that everyone moved by it would immediately commit the verses to memory.
5.) recognized by friend and critics alike as being a magnificent work of Muhammad's native language... so much so that it elevated Arabic to a language of high literature and inspired generations of poets, artists, scientists, etc.

Duplicate these clearly miraculous conditions to also produce such a work, and you will have met the challenge of the One God of Abraham, Author of the Holy Qur'an.

Shmuel Beckerman - The challenge was only for Arab pagans though. Why is it that the majority of Jews and Christians are unimpressed by the Qur’an? Especially Arabian Jews who saw all of the flaws, inconsistencies, and contradictions in Qur’anic content and simply laughed at Muhammad and quickly rejected him. From the Jewish perspective, Muhammad spread monotheism to non-Jews, and soon the whole world will be united in serving God together as the Jews lead the way. Christianity and Islam are dependent on Judaism, but Judaism is independent of both.

Muhammad Rasheed - 1.) The challenge was for any and all disbelievers who doubted the fact that Muhammad (pbuh) really was the messenger of Allah, and that the Qur'an was indeed revealed by Him.

2.) The majority of Jews and Christians are unimpressed by the Qur’an because they are either ignorant of it, or disingenuous and arrogant.

3.) The Arabian Jews famously covenanted with Muhammad along with the other Yathrib tribal leaders, and later betrayed the prophet resulting in an intense humiliation that is now recorded in history to their shame. There is NO excuse for one who proclaims belief in the One God of Abraham to side with savage pagans against another believer in that same One God. The faux-critiques of the Jews, in the form of "kidnapped rabbis" and denying his illiteracy, gave away the true reasons behind their rejection of the Qur'an. It was no less than ethnic sibling rivalry, and a younger brother's pouting in his false belief that he holds some kind of monopoly over the special favor of Allah.

4.) Allah Himself perfected Al-Islam for humanity, and since He is the Source, the Muslim is dependent upon the One God alone. Your empty arrogance is showing again. I suggest you check it, and bow down to the Lord thy God and give Him the Glory that you seem to covet for yourself.

Shmuel Beckerman - Your second point is ignorant, biased, arrogant, and insulting. The Jews in Muhammad’s time and today, were and are unimpressed by the Qur’an not because of its flowery, eloquent language and strict/pure monotheism. Jews admire Muhammad for spreading monotheism to pagans, but he claimed he was a prophet for the Jews, openly contradicted the Torah, and slaughtered them like the violent fool that he was! Judaism was an ancient religion even in the 7th century, and the Jews had their established scripture! Had Muhammad left the Jews alone he would never have faced rejection! What an idiot. A power hungry, obsessive, maniacal warlord and control freak who’s best audience was the Arab pagans and no one else. And of course even they rejected him, he was a real outcast and a loser with low self esteem in his own abilities. Initially, he refused to believe he was a prophet himself!

He sabotaged his cause and shot himself in the foot by seeking their approval and caused his own problems. But even if he was rejected he should have taken it like a man, sucked it up and moved on. He didn’t because his character/personality was weak. What a lousy role model, the best example for all Muslims.

Therefore, Muhammad was arrogant, narcissistic, and stupid enough to intrude on the religious beliefs of other people. Muhammad accomplished an amazing feat by spreading monotheism to pagans and that’s undeniable but he was an utter, and total fool in other ways.

He was utterly stupid to assert that he was a prophet to the Jews, and openly contradict the Torah, while they read the Torah in their daily lives to disprove him. Jews strictly and firmly believe Moses is the last prophet, so Muhammad’s teachings contradict the Torah and don’t confirm it as he arrogantly claimed. Thus, the Jews didn’t accept him for legitimate reasons of faith and certainly not for the ignorant, biased and arrogant reasons you stated which are insults to the Jews.

The Torah is for the Jews and the Qur’an is for the Muslims. Muhammad was an insecure, narcissistic, hypocrite who couldn’t leave well enough alone. He needed an ego boost from the Jews to confirm him as a prophet, he needed their approval which says a lot about his true character! He couldn’t handle rejection and he had an inferiority complex among other mental issues.

He slaughtered Jews because they refused to accept him as a true prophet for their own reasons and that offended his fragile ego, what a damn, pathetic shame! He was a walking, talking contradiction. And Muslims who say he was humble, kind and the best of humans or best of creations are lying. If he was the best example for Islamic behavior, its clear why many Muslims are walking, talking contradictions themselves. He spread monotheism to pagans but he was certainly not a good person. He was a violent false prophet.

Muhammad Rasheed - This new post of yours functions as little more than a tantrum, the details of which conflict with the facts of history.

1.) The Jews of Muhammad's day  specifically the three major tribes of Yathrib  covenanted with him and agreed to aid the prophet in exchange for (among other things) mediation between the groups of that city. They even said they recognized him as the messenger, and betrayed him later.

2.) The One God of Abraham is EVERYONE'S God; He's the Lord of all those who agree to worship Him and accept the message of His prophets as true, and the Qur'an is for all of mankind. Don't pretend that there is anything left of the original revealed scripture of Moses left in the scrolls you carry, since we BOTH know better. The Jews hold no monopoly over Allah's favor... the "chosen people" concept as they hold onto it is a fiction. Allah promised the patriarchs that because of their own individual unflinching righteousness and good service, He would make their progeny more numerous than the stars in the sky. This fact alone is responsible for Allah's enormous amounts of Self-Restraint in the face of the children of Israel's continuous betrayals and disrespect during the Exodus journey, not because they themselves were anointed as specially favored. No. The leaders of the Jews early on made up their own rules, and decided on their own they would no longer accept the prophets who were raised up to admonish them as true. They attacked and slaughtered Allah's messengers from among their own nation, as well as those from alien ethnic groups, so it should be no surprise that they would attack the final prophet who was raised up from the nation of their oldest rivals. There is only one reason, and one reason only that they reject the Qur'an. Bile-fueled jealousy.

3.) "Leaving the Jews alone" was not an option, as it was the prophet's job to preach the message of God to whomsoever he was instructed to preach it to by that very same God. Perhaps you have grown overused to playing loose & free with the narrative of sacred scripture, until you somehow believe the prophets could do whatever they wanted? Know you that they were NOT in charge. Only Allah is in charge, and it is your job to listen to what the Lord thy God commands and obey Him. God is NOT your peer, and His messengers were His agents to be obeyed, not maligned and killed because they did not aid and abet your foolishness. When you attacked and disobeyed the prophets, you attacked and disobeyed God Himself.

4.) The Banu Qurayza slaughtered themselves by siding with the pagan enemy of fellow believers in the One God, lying about it, and refusing to repent once they were called out. Hard-hearted, prideful, and stubborn until the end, they refused to repent of their wrong and preferred the ultimate humiliation instead. Note that both the Banu Nadir and the Banu Qaynuqa were allowed to leave with their lives after they wisely decided to repent, thus demonstrating it was pride alone that ended the treacherous lives of the Qurayza, not Muhammad.

5.) So he was both power hungry and had low self-esteem? lol Which was it? Do you all ever try to make sense? In his lifetime, Muhammad prevailed over the enemies of God, consolidated the tribes of Arabia, and ended his days as the prophet-king of the peninsula, leaving behind a strong and growing body of believers that would go on to conquer nearly the entire Old World. Because of this, all of your talk of 'rejection' and 'his problems' comes across as babbling nonsense. I did notice that his enemies (particularly anyone within the body of believers who were only pretending to be Muslim as they worked their way to positions of power) waited until after the messenger of Allah was safely away from the material realm before they worked their revenge schemes.

6.) A random Jew on the Internet called Muhammad a 'fool,' yet the Lord thy God said, within His enduring scripture of the ages, that the prophet was indeed of most excellent character, a sublime believer whose behavior He commanded we all emulate (especially you). Which one of you should I believe then?  ;)

Shmuel Beckerman - You certainly know a tremendous amount of Islamic history but I know a tremendous amount of Jewish history, and your arguments function as little more than a nostalgic view of the good old days, the details of which are currently irrelevant and contradict current events. So I’m not going to be sucked into the past, when I can discuss the present and the future. Your arguments don’t phase me as I have better evidence against your claims. The fact remains that Jews still observe their own scripture, and Muslims still observe their own scripture. Both faith groups are as separate and distinct now as they were 1400 years ago, and that’s not going to change anytime soon.

Muhammad never really accomplished his goal of converting all the Jews to Islam. So all of this superiority, and high and mighty talk about Muhammad’s successful unification of the pagan Arab tribes, his ‘ummah’, but his failure to honestly convince Jews to join him also comes across to me as babbling nonsense. That was then and this is now, and the situation is exactly the same! Don’t resort to insulting and blaming the Jews when they were entitled to defend themselves and adhere to the faith of their forefathers against the selfish, mentally ill, ignorant, narcissist Muhammad.

He intruded on the Jews, who had an established and ancient religion, and forced them to believe he was a prophet when he openly contradicted their Torah! At his own risk he intruded on them and was logically rejected, how stupid! Also, Muhammad was not humble he was arrogant but also inferior. He was insecure and needed people to boost his ego, so he slaughtered anyone who criticized him and intruded on other faiths!

The Jews knew intuitively that Muhammad was a false prophet, the utter antithesis of Moses who was indeed the most humble, and gentle of human beings, and the greatest prophet in human history. When Moses was challenged he never killed anyone, he was truly scared and prayed to God because he was so humble. Moses was a true role model and a positive example/influence for the Jews, unlike Muhammad.

Today, Muslims follow Muhammad and Jews follow Moses, and what a difference in behavior! So Muhammad really failed to accomplish his biggest goal, how humiliating! As I’m sure you know, the Muslim world is an utter fractured, barbaric mess with Muslims killing each other left and right! Muslims can only agree to disagree.

Why is there so much bloodshed in the Muslim world if Muslims are supposed to be the best nation of mankind and an example of unity and good behavior and conduct when they hate each other so much! Surah 3:110 was wrong about the high and mighty ‘ummah’. And if that verse was wrong, I’m sure much of the Qur’an is wrong and false giving credence to Muhammad as a false prophet. Why are Allah’s statements so deceptive, contradictory, and hypocritical? Very strange! Allah’s statements change on a whim whenever Muhammad wants. Very suspicious and inconsistent!

Jews don’t kill each other left and right, and they have one united country, Israel, where people get along in relative peace. So your entire rant about Muhammad’s supposed accomplishments backfires! The pathetic Muslim world and ‘ummah’ today contradicts events of the 7th century and beyond, everything has backfired and failed before your very eyes!

Muslims know it and it humiliates them deep down, and I’m sure it humiliates you as well, that history has been very unfair to Muslims, and much better for the Jews who have accomplished so much and contributed so much to society. Muslims countries are terrible places wherein the vast majority of people are poor, uneducated, ignorant, illiterate, misogynistic, miserable, and aren’t critical thinkers nor are they self-critical. Why is that if not for the lies, falsehood, and misinformation in the Qur’an.

In fact, the Qur’an urges Muslims to use reason, so what the hell happened?! Why are Muslim countries in a backward, self-defeating dark age?! Israel and the Jews are successful, I wonder why? Its because of Torah/Jewish values! Muslims are jealous, envious, and hateful of Jewish/Israeli success and prefer to criticize and blame others for their own flaws, deficiencies, and weaknesses.

So I don’t buy any one of your arguments, and I never will, they don’t phase me. You’re assertive in your claims about the past, but Islamic history is a big contradiction and the Muslim world is a total failure, whereas Jewish history has been far more historically consistent in line with the Torah! People are frightened, suspicious of and despise Muslims because the so called precious, holy ‘ummah’ can’t get their damn act together, unite, and act like respectable, civilized human beings instead of angry, violent, tribal, desert fools.

Muslims right now are a model of terror, no one respects them, and they don’t respect themselves. Muslims are held to an incredibly low standard by the entire Western world. Muhammad was a false prophet, he failed to accomplish his ultimate goals even though he spread monotheism to pagans, big deal. Talk about the past all you want, but it won’t avail you. I’ve exposed your lies and the truth hurts.

Muhammad Rasheed - This latest post of yours demonstrates what it looks like when one decides to eschew the facts of history, and instead manufacture and devour faux-knowledge from within the insulated bubble of bigoted minds that think exactly like you do. In this you have a lot in common with the White Supremacist groups among the American conservatives whose minds perform in the same fashion. There is a clear dividing line in between the politics of the early Muslim world versus the politics at work on the world stage today, and normally my argument often serves to shine the spotlight on those differences in order to enlighten a misinformed audience. With you I’ll make the exception, since the specific point of view you are revealing in this thread is directly addressed by the Lord thy God in the Qur’an in numerous verses. Although I myself am not a child of Ishmael, we may consider this particular argument we engage in to be “personal” from our perspective as shared Peoples of the Book.

You’ve betrayed your true thoughts in this emotional tantrum essay you’ve typed above, and it in fact confirms what Allah said about you. I am amused at the tone of your writing voice, which implies that I should somehow take what you say at face value and simply believe it because you said it. You love to show you have a lot in common with the White Supremacist mind, I see, and I’m beginning to wonder which of your two ideologies influenced the other…? But that is a topic for another day. Allah revealed who you were, and how you act when you perform at your insufferable worst, and here I find you enthusiastically dancing along to that same 1,500 year old script, almost on cue. lol

Again I have to ask: Should I believe the One God of Abraham, or you? Please bear in mind that… despite your strutting about in the land as if you can smash a mountain with a single blow, or tear the earth asunder with your bare hands… you have no heaven nor hell to put me in, and the One who will Judge me will also Judge you. Based on your posts in this thread, were you to die this very day, that inevitable Ultimate Trial will not go as your delusions have you believing it will. You’ve done yourself a great disservice in rejecting YHWH’s messengers who came after Moses (peace be upon him), and the scripture they tried to admonish you with; it turns out you’ve missed out on quite a bit. Combined with your penchant for simply making up nonsense and pretending it was from God in order to manufacture faux-authority for your schemes, this will be your undoing. You value the antiquity of your religion, over the purity of God’s Word, which is what the religion itself is designed to guard. Your religion has been stripped of its purpose, and has now become little more than a country club for money worship. This is NOT good, Beckerman, and the stench of your empty boasting is foul indeed. I mentioned that the Lord thy God bluntly addresses most of your points directly in the Qur’an, but I suspect that when you read it, even though you hate being admonished, those aren’t the parts that make the blood rush to your face. You really, REALLY hate the parts where God talks about the wealthy in general, and how harshly He treats your materialism idol. You’ve convinced yourself that obscene hoards of material wealth – no matter HOW it is obtained – automatically means you are divinely favored by God and have His approval, so the Qur’an’s unflinching popping of that silly bubble must make your cognitive dissonance churn up in your gut like fire, huh? ;) I’m convinced that this and this fact alone is why you hate Islam, Muhammad (pbuh) and the Qur’an.

Muhammad’s goal, despite the claims of your pet strawman effigy, was not to convert all the Jews to Islam. Instead, his goal was what his Lord said his goal was to be: To preach the revealed message of the One God. Several times throughout the Book, Allah explained that it wasn’t any of the prophets’ jobs to make their people believe, only to make sure the message was heard; it wasn’t their responsibility whether the people accepted the message or not. God assures us that all of them were successful, and preached the Word of God clear and true. All those who heard, and allowed the verses to penetrate and turn their hearts towards the Straight Path of Al-Islam were the winners (whether rich or poor, as demonstrated during the hajj ritual), and all those who held your position were the losers, who will know only torment in the next life. The Arabian Jews didn’t “defend themselves,” Beckerman. They rejected the Lord thy God and His messenger, sided with the pagans against their fellow People of the Book for greed, and were too prideful to admit they erred and would do it no more. In other words, they traded their egos for hellfire, and you somehow wish me to believe they were the good guys of the story. They were NOT.

What is this new fantasy you’re weaving in which only the Arab tribes fought among each other, while the Hebrew tribes always got along in perfect harmony? Are you insane? The Old Testament is full of incidents of you all’s continuous bickering, and at its worst, it reveals you stooping so low in your aggressions that you would even slander the prophets of YHWH if they happened to be of a rival Hebrew tribe! Shameful. Even today, the white-skinned Jews hate the dark-skinned Jews with a vicious passion born of envy, and again I can’t tell whether the White Supremacists influenced you, or you influenced them.

It’s funny reading your comments regarding Israel and the current state of many Muslim countries. You’ve forgotten that in the past, under Muslim rule during the golden age of Islam, all three Abrahamic faiths not only lived in harmony, but the tolerant society allowed you to economically and academically thrive specifically… the learned and ambitious among you made it a point to go to Muslim Spain and Baghdad, etc. The Muslim world didn’t look the way it does today in all those centuries, and in fact, the harsh and abused way it looks today can be traced to the manipulations of the European founders of the state of Israel, and their Western superpower allies. You throw your diabolical colonialism, and greed-fueled war mongering in my face and name it ‘pretty scented flowers.’ No, thank you, as I prefer to call it what it actually is. It's telling indeed that you admit you don't consider the spread of Allah's monotheism message to be a big deal. Please repent, bow down to your Guardian Lord who made you, and change utterly so that you may manage to save yourself from hell.


Shmuel Beckerman - You are very knowledgeable and sharp as I am and we are both strong in our convictions. I do not hate Islam, that’s your assumption but I’m countering facts with facts, you attack the Jews and I attack the Muslims, its perfectly fair, the best offense is a good defense. Also, I sense typical Islamic supremacy directed against Jews, me specifically, in your tone.

Ironic how you accuse me of being a white supremacist when I’m a Jew, historically a target of white supremacy, and a religious minority. Your credibility in the realm of history outside the Islamic bubble is severely lacking and you’re showing your true ugly colors.

Apparently you’re fiercely biased toward Islamic history and the Islamic worldview of conquest and subjugation of others. Its evident why you can’t make accurate/objective historical connections in your contradictory and hypocritical statements. Imagine, calling a Jew a white supremacist, go figure! You’re not too bright are you? I beg to differ, you’re just reflecting and exposing your own bigoted views.

Evidently, the Muslim ‘ummah’ has a notorious and infamous history of bigotry, discrimination of minorities, black slavery, racism, persecution of non-Muslims, and colonialism. I’d bet that’s one of the reasons your a Muslim, given that your not ethnically Arab, in that your recent ancestors were forced to convert to Islam and adopt Arabic names but correct me if I’m wrong, maybe its just you.

Your attitude is the logical consequence of Islamic colonialism and ideological/theological supremacy directed against all non-Muslims. You raise relevant points about Jewish history, but you’re biased in that you deflect and blame Jews for Muhammad’s deficiencies to boost your huge ego. Truly influenced by your role model, as Muslims typically are. When you’re greatest role model and example was a jealous, insecure, violent, arrogant bigot who hated minorities its a recipe for disaster!

Also, Jews certainly disobeyed their prophets, fought against each other, and sinned against God. I never denied that, the Torah is brutally honest about the Jews’ poor conduct. But the pagan Arabs were exactly the same in their rejection of Muhammad. Moreover, the Jews invented ethical monotheism centuries before Muhammad was even born so they at least had a covenant with God! The Arabs were pathetic, barbaric, and idolatrous until the 7th century! They were polytheists, so even though the Jews sinned at least they had a relationship with God, though a strained one. The jāhil Arabs had no knowledge of the One God until the 7th century, its astounding how long it was before their inspiration and revelation.

You’re stuck in the past, but currently the Jews are far more successful than the Muslims. There is one united Jewish country, Jews worship the One God as pure, ethical monotheists, and there is no significant religious hatred, fighting, or killing in any Jewish community. Muslims disagree, fight, and kill each other all day every day, 24/7 with no end in sight and terrorize everyone in the world with their stupidity, aggression, and intolerance. Jews recovered from their problems, Muslims still fail by wallowing in self-pity and self-hatred, jealous and envious of the Jews and the world. Excluding oil, which Arabs need help extracting since they can’t do it themselves, Muslim countries produce nothing and contribute nothing, they only take. Oil is a blessing for them and enriches their pathetic economies to benefit the royal family and top associates, everyone else suffers in pain and miserable poverty. The ‘ummah’ is not united, though it is certainly hypocritical.

The example of Muhammad is evident in the hellish Islamic world. All Islamic countries are barbaric hellholes, and you’re ignorant enough to blame this on Israel?! The Middle East was a miserable, bloodbath long before Israel was established, you fool! The region is still a miserable bloodbath because of Islam and no other reason. Muslims use the Jews and Israel as their scapegoat, like the typical anti-Semites they’ve always been, and which you seem to be. Jews were ethnically cleansed from Islamic countries with intimidation and condescension even though Jews made these countries prosperous. Playing the blame game and failing to address your own issues, not self critical, a damn shame! Your weak assertive arguments don’t phase me, I’ve countered them with facts. We’re both strong in our convictions, but history is in my favor not yours. You’re stuck in the past, ranting about the Jews this, the Jews that, the Jews did this, the Jews did that. Currently, the Jews fare better than the Muslims so you lack credibility my friend. You can rant all you want, but I’m not convinced, history is about the big picture which you’re not seeing.

Muhammad Rasheed
- I did not “attack the Jews,” Beckerman. Remember, all that I did was answer Khan's question about the Qur’an, and you responded to my answer by falsely proclaiming that the Book is full of “flaws, inconsistencies, and contradictions” because you heard someone say that once and you thought it made sense as it fit your predisposed bigotry. You then proceeded to present all of your folk tales, biases, and ethnic fantasies as if they were casual facts & truths. Of course I would find this behavior unacceptable, and have sought but to counter with actual facts, and well-known historical knowledge free of your clouded vision of how you would like the world to be. I don’t know what your “typical Islamic supremacy” is supposed to mean, but I do know that I accept the Word of God as revealed, while you admit to rejecting/fighting God’s messengers tooth & nail until here I find you accepting only Moses (pbuh) as your prophet and ignoring all the rest. lol You’ve built your peculiar version of God’s religion around these blasphemies you willingly admit to committing, and then you snap at me – as a real believer in the One God – for holding you to account for what you are supposed to know and follow as a fellow People of the Book. I do not hate the Jews/Hebrews/children of Israel, and I hate “anti-semitism” as much as you claim to (the White Supremacist is NOT my friend). I submit my will to the One God of Abraham, and as you know, He has very specific requirements for those who believe. I only bring up these points as revealed by God in His Book; I hold no evil in my heart for you just because you are different from me. However, I do hold some resentment based on historical behaviors displayed by your people against mine from my dual identity… behaviors that you continue up into the present day, and when called out on them, you lie and pretend you didn’t, despite the raw evidence shrieking loud as a blaring noise. In an ideal world our two groups could get along great, sharing knowledge and building up together in the interdependent Kumbaya smokescreen you guys promote as real. Meanwhile, I don’t even have that relationship with my real siblings. lol It’s not realistic here when there is so much more bad blood and treachery inflicted upon my peoples from so many varying angles by yours. Your ages old pretense to holding a monopoly over God’s favor will continuously show up as a wedge between us, because from your selfish perspective, there can be only one “chosen people.” BTW, my tone is only directed towards you as a representative, not in a literal personal way since I don’t know you on an individual level. I can only respond to your argument in the way presented, which was as the group’s mouthpiece.

Actually I am equally as shocked as you are at your odd demonstration of White Supremacist traits. Because of your own history of being on the receiving end of harsh discriminatory treatment, I agree that one would think you lot would wish to stay as far away from that behavior as possible, and yet here I find you oddly mimicking it whenever you can, and for the same reasons that they do it: To monopolize wealth and power for yourself. This is not noble nor righteous behavior, Beckerman, but is in fact, the core traits of an oppressor class. In the Qur’an, the Lord thy God has commanded the believer to fight the oppressor so that peace will reign in the land. Naturally I will consider that yet another reason why you hate God’s Book, since for the exploited to obey their Guardian Lord it would negatively affect your income streams.

I’m not sure “fiercely biased” is an accurate description of my pro-Islam stance, since it only reflects my submission to Allah as a Muslim. This is more important to me than any pro-nationalist, pro-ethnic, or pro-cultural doctrine position, and it should be more important to you as well. Obedience to God is far more important than compromising God’s requirements to instead demonstrate fierce biased commitment to an altered religious doctrine that conflicts with the spirit of God’s message. This behavior functions as disbelief in God, not a “strained relationship.” You but beckon your entire clan to hell with such foolishness, propping it up as a value point for your progeny to emulate! Rejecting God isn’t a “relationship” with Him at all, sir. Wake up. To make matters worse, you justify the behavior by pointing towards the fruit of economic success! Far indeed you are away from the Straight Path of YHWH, and all this while you profess to know scripture and the history of the Hebrew nation! God explained many times that He tests the earthbound with prosperity and adversity alike, and yet you mistake the mere test for paradise itself. Idolatry is the only possible explanation for this mindset; you justify rejecting your Lord in exchange for wealth because you in fact worship the wealth and its acquisition as your god. Shameful! Your empty boasts of your shallow material successes reveal only your profound lack of insight into the message of sacred scripture.

I see I hit a nerve by mentioning that many of your traits reflect those I’ve exposed within the mindset of the White Supremacist archetype. Does this truly disturb you? I am not inclined to believe that it does since you don’t feel that you are racist against the Black peoples. You may be disturbed because of your efforts to pretend that you don’t have a well-documented history of being exactly that. In the spirit of disclosure, you should know that I have in my possession (among other things) all four volumes of “Documents Illustrative of the History of the Slave Trade to America” (Published: 1930-1935, Carnegie Institution of Washington D.C.) which reveals in detail who actually set up the model of the Atlantic Slave Trade in the beginning… who actually owned the ships, the West African forts, the rum distilleries, and the sugar cane lands. This info is undeniable, and yet when confronted with the charge, you’ve bluntly denied your responsibility using only the power of “Harrumph!” and “Egad!!” alongside various comical Jedi Mind Trick attempts. Star Wars isn’t real, Beckerman, but the greasy filth on your hands certainly is. You had a lot of nerve bringing up “black slavery” when it was you that perfected the ‘art.’ With the House of Saud and the Israeli government performing backroom deals even as we speak, while outwardly pretending to hate each other, I would expect to find – should I care to dig – that the money trail leading from this same modern “black slavery” you mentioned leads directly to the wealth hoards of the House of Israel. PLEEEASE challenge me on that so I will be motivated to dig!

Long ago, I had a rather embarrassing encounter with a small group of Jehovah’s Witnesses that did little more than demonstrate what I didn’t know. In response (primarily to repair my flayed ego initially) I took on a path of self-directed comparative religious study, and in the end, formally converted to Al-Islam based on the revealed logical conclusions of my findings. Decades later, my stance has not moved, and I have never found reason to regret the decision. In other words, your fantasy of me being force-converted at the point of a scimitar while bound in iron chains is hardly accurate. lol

I’ve noticed that you walk around with a bag full of these weird fantasies you espouse; honestly believing I will take them at face value as some kind of truths. This “one united Jewish country” concept is one of these, and I sit incredulous at your ability to type such craziness with a presumably straight face. So the White European ruling class elitist Israelis have their own little “one united Jewish country,” while they infamously discriminate against any and all Black/brown-skinned Jews in the rest of the known universe. As always, the tribes of the children of Israel are jealous of each other, hate each other, and treat each other like dirt starting from when the prophet Joseph (pbuh) sat confused and hurt at the bottom of that long ago dry well. I know too much about you, Beckerman, to fall for your ‘Jewish Utopia’ fictions. Do you even live in Israel? Or when you visit, does your clan keep you on a well-rehearsed visitor’s pathway in which only the elitists’ designated sights are within your gaze, in a perfect imitation of vising North Korea? Tell me.

I’ve also noticed that you can’t stop slandering and insulting the prophet-messenger of Abraham’s God. I would knock it off if I were you, as you only build up more evidence against yourself for the Day of Judgment. Or did you hope to share a torture mat with the hellbound leaders of the Banu Qurayza? Who cares what the pagan Arabs did before Islam? Every single one of them will enjoy hell. I’m a Muslim, and all I care most about are those who willingly submit their wills to the One God, even from among your folk and the Christians. My enemies are first, those who reject God, and second, those who subjugate and disenfranchise my own people, especially while pretending they are God-fearing.

The Muslim world was never in continuous bloody devastation during these past 1,500 yrs. The current abused state did not begin until 1948, when the European powers allowed the war mongering Zionists to mow down those 700,000 native Muslims, Christians AND Jews (your tribes hate each other, remember?) to make way for your savage “Utopia.” Google what those lands looked like before Western imperialism reduced them to rubble and adjust yourself, please.

I’m amused at your complaints that I’m “playing the blame game,” while you simultaneously blame Muslims for your manufactured ills. I look forward to how you plan to explain this discrepancy. :D Can it be as simple as your faux-privilege that’s based only on the ‘chosen people’ myth? Please explain.

Shmuel Beckerman - I’m sorry for being uncaring and rude in my arguments, I just want to let you know that its not how I actually feel about you either, since we certainly don’t know each other personally. Its very easy to be rude online to anyone for emotional reasons and due to my own uninformed biases, I’m truly sorry. I’ve fallen into this trap on here because I’m new to Quora and my skills are not developed.  Evidently, you are also far more objective than me by condemning anyone who disobeys God even fellow Muslims, whereas I am just defending the Jews and ignoring our ills. You’re correct and I agree with you.

You’re very sharp and knowledgeable, I have to keep emphasizing that because its clearly true in your responses that you know much more than me about Islamic history, and likely about Jewish history as well, is that true? I’m not as well informed as you and I certainly don’t believe you’re an anti-Semite either, I just brought up various points for argument’s sake to get the most out of our discussion, I was hoping you’d counter them, because evidently we both know a lot and its good to discuss these things by including the most information we know on these issues.

I do not want to offend you, nor you me, just to have a spirited argument is all, so I’ve got nothing else to say, I’ve made all the points I know and can think of and you’ve countered them all, I appreciate this discussion. Also you’re right that I started this whole tangent based on your original response to a totally unrelated question, and you probably weren’t expecting to go off topic with some random guy, but I’ve learned a lot from you and about you by doing so, how about you?

We both have our convictions, but you’re responses to my arguments are much better, well informed, and less insulting than mine. You’ve brought me to that realization in this newest post of yours, I appreciate it and I’m very embarrassed about my accusatory language.

I emphasize that It’s not how I truly feel about you, rather its for argument’s sake to have the most informed and fullest discussion we can possibly have. All of your points are relevant, and true and so are mine.

This topic is ultimately a dead end, because Jews and Muslims both have our own communal problems, so accusing each other only leads to misconceptions and hatred, and that’s not what you or I want. But these arguments challenge us and help us both learn more. You are absolutely correct that Jews have a range of communal problems within and without Israel, I never denied that and there is much to improve, same with the Muslims, we both agree on this.

I am grateful to you for skillfully deconstructing my arguments, because I can now do more research and correct my statements. You’ve raised points which make me feel very guilty and expose my misinformation, and I appreciate it! I’m happy to be challenged and corrected because it helps me learn more. I’ve got nothing else to say for now, but maybe later after I research deeper aspects of Jewish history.

Shmuel Beckerman - Its undeniable that Islamic colonialism has caused tremendous problems in the Middle East, and the Jews ultimately have nothing to do with it, neither does Israel. Israel is a country with significantly fewer problems than any other in the region, and that’s why Arabs hate it because it mirrors their own failures to build a stable, structured society. They hate it because they don’t want it and can’t accept it, so Israel isn’t to blame for the poor, intolerant attitude of the Arabs.

Its very easy for people to miss the deeper significance of the conflict with Israel in the Middle East. Most people love to scapegoat the Jews for this, though maybe not you, and ignore the blatant problems which predate the establishment of Israel. Its ridiculous, enough is enough! Why do the Arabs always need to be appeased?! Are they that insecure? Are their egos so fragile? I suppose so, given that Muhammad is their example. Jews/Israelis need not apologize for Israel simply because the Arabs will throw a tantrum, they’re held to an incredibly low standard throughout the world, how embarrassing for them.

Muhammad Rasheed - I’ll accept your apology for being rude and accusatory at face value, Shmuel. I’ll also accept your offer for an honest and spirited dialogue, since I also value the same. Moving forward I will proceed from a position of mutual learning, with the hope that we may both be able to take full advantage of the open discussion and learn things about each other’s cultures and religions that we didn’t before, adding to the value of our intellectual repertoire.

Also, instead of getting offended and lashing out at you when you share your people’s negative opinions of my sacred belief system and its prophet-messenger founder, I will explain why these opinions are off the mark to the best of my ability, to give you a chance to rethink your position on it. Slandering the prophets is not a good idea. Ever. I know you are fiercely loyal to your ethnic group; I understand it and admire it, but you all habitually cross a line in it that should never be crossed. The Jewish people with their ages old customs is not your God, and neither are the doctors of the Law, your Talmudic texts, nor the over-proud will of the people themselves. Siding with them and what you are used to, in direct opposition to what YHWH has commanded, will lead only to your doom. There are no special loop holes, or specially printed “Get Out of Hell… for FREE! (Jews Only)” cards, only full repentance to Allah, and a re-aligning of your will and deeds to His Will and commands. You may have whatever you fantasize within your fondest dreams, but first you must pass this earthly test according to God’s criteria. Do not mistake the wealth you amass for the End Goal, or it will be added to the fuel of your assigned space in hell. To be saved – and truly counted among those Allah favors – you MUST learn to love the promise of the unseen next life more than you love the dazzling riches of this one, and build the habits of encoding this into your enduring cultural practices for your children’s sake.

“Islamic colonialism” didn’t cause any problems in the middle east, since Al-Islam only found hellbound pagans and atheists when it was bestowed upon the region by the One God. Of course they weren’t all perfect, since they were only human after-all, but the true problems that they are dealing with were caused from the manipulations of outsiders, which include numerous generations of vengeful agents of the 7th century Arabian Jews, and centuries of European imperialism & allies under the banner of Western Christian White Supremacy. Israel can only be considered to have ‘fewer problems’ in the same way that the royal elite among the oil rich Arab nations have ‘fewer problems’ than the lower class people they run over daily. Truly this is a mentality that can only be possessed by one who believes no one else matters except for his own special group, expressed from within an extreme “us vs. them” bubble. And who performs that teleplay better than you? No one else in all the world counts, only you. No one else has problems worth mentioning. Does the historic record reveal the ethnic cleansing genocide of others, with their corpses piled up in the millions by savage, blood-thirsty madmen, too? Yes, but magically their “holocausts” don’t count because they are not YOU. lol So if Israel never counts the problems they afflict upon others in their self-administered final tally while in the midst of their self-glorification empire building mind you then of course it will give the diabolical illusion that they have fewer problems than others. #IntegrityCheckFailure

As far as your “that’s why Arabs hate it” line, it is of a similar concept to the above. The Israelis believe they are not only specially favored by God, but they think they somehow have the authority to deliberately sabotage the successes of others in order to artificially support their ‘chosen people’ fantasy. Remember the Six-Day War (1967), when Israel destroyed the air fields of their Arab neighbors? They cooked up a story that the Arabs were hostile to them and they had to do it because they might have had WMD or whatever. It was clear by their performance during that war, that Israel fully expected to use their superior hi-tech might to simply plow through the Egyptian, Jordanian, and Syrian forces as if they were a bunch of children. Instead, the three pulled together their might, and although still technologically outmatched, managed to inflict such damage upon their arrogant foes, that the Israel aggressor never tried that again. They regrouped and developed a program using their intelligence agency to keep the Arab world fighting among themselves, with this being directly responsible not only for the ‘terrorist’ strife, but the wide propaganda spreading the message of their terrible reputations (not that they are saints normally). Today, the coming together and fighting their treacherous Israeli foes like a well-oiled machine as displayed by the three Arab nations during the Six-Day War seems nigh-impossible from our 2017 perspective, but that reflects only the success of Israel’s long-term schemes. Again, this is neither noble, nor righteous behavior, but of the core traits of an oppressor class… including the marketing campaign that somehow paints themselves as the victims of the tale.

I’ll do you a favor and dismiss the “Why do the Arabs always need to be appeased?!” comment out of hand. With the unregistered ADL as the most powerful and influential lobby in Washington D.C., “Please appease us!” is Israel’s most well-rehearsed slogan. lol Naturally I’ll expect to read many more such hypocritical nuggets from your direction since you can’t seem to help yourself. smh

Shmuel Beckerman - I value this information. Also, I absolutely agree with you about the folly of disobeying God’s commands among any nation whether Jews, Muslims or otherwise. The Torah itself is very objective, harsh, and extremely critical of the Jews as God rebukes the nation multiple times for worshiping the golden calf, complaining about lack of food and so on. However, many Muslims may not be aware that those who complained were not Hebrews/Israelites but rather Egyptians who decided to join Moses in the exodus from Egypt. They were the ones who initiated and encouraged construction and worship of the Golden calf, not the Israelites, though they joined in.

The Egyptians were the ones who gave Moses the most trouble, and not the Israelites. This is an important nuance which is missed in that Muslims believe it was the Israelites who complained because that’s what the Qur’an says. The Torah mentions this about the Egyptians complaining to Moses, but the Qur’an doesn’t which ought to make you question the Qur’an’s legitimacy, I’m sorry to say. If the Qur’an is God’s word, why does God blame the Israelites for complaining to Moses, while in the Torah God blames the Egyptians mostly, and the Israelites less? Why a change in the narrative?

Generally though, God rebukes the Israelites very harshly and you’re correct that no Jew, Muslim, or anyone else should be arrogant about anything nor to anyone as we are God’s servants and not his close friends. He is very much aware of what we do and say, and He knows what we think.

So yes, I appreciate how you remind me that God favors those who listen to him and obey him among any nation, but is swift to account for those who disobey him among any nation. In the Torah God says that he does not play favorites or take bribes, he treats everyone equally according to their deeds.

I’ve learned a great lesson from this discussion. Still though, you ought to reassess the Qur’an’s legitimacy because its dubious based on the example I’ve given on its dishonest changes within narratives which come directly from the Torah. This is why Jews deny it, not because they’re arrogant but because it contradicts the Torah which came before it.

Muhammad Rasheed - 1.) The main problem with your attempt to deflect the children of Israel’s wrongs to the Egyptians, is that after spending over a generation in Egypt, they had fully assimilated into that society. Do you doubt this? Remember that along the Exodus journey, they were continuously being admonished for allowing themselves to be bedazzled by the exotic customs and idols they saw, and longing to join and take on the alien cultural traits that allured them. And during the time period, who was more alluring than glorious Egypt? Moses’ highly-influential great uncle Joseph (peace be upon the messengers) provided choice lands and many benefits to his people when he called for them, and the issues they went through during Moses’ time was envy-based hostility from the upper classes. The children of Israel were spoiled rotten, and had grown used to the high-living Joseph had established for them, so of course roughing it during the Exodus was a bit much for them. lol Among them, some were more assimilated into Egyptian culture than others, but since they were all well-established there on land that their ancestor had legally given them, they were all technically Egyptian citizens. That’s where they were all born after-all. No doubt there was some marriage mixing going on between the two cultures, too.

2.) Shmuel, we’ve already established that the children of Israel had a long, long history of rejecting and even attacking their prophets, which came with a corresponding molestation of the scriptural message. They didn’t go so far as to completely rewrite the entire Torat, but they did alter it enough to require a continuous stream of newly anointed prophets to try to set them aright with scripture… scripture that they rejected again and again based on your own admissions. The Lord has been merciful to you indeed that He hasn't wiped you off the face of the map like He did the many rebellious disbelievers of olde, but your insults against the Final Revealed Message from Him demonstrate a mindset that needs a total overall if you dream even a little bit of building a true and favorable relationship with God. I suggest you repent.
Shujaur Rehman - Also insert the so called ‘violent verses’ in a book which are often quoted in the case of islam by it’s critics(out of context ofcourse) to assert their understanding of it being a violent cult responsible for almost all the unrest in the world today and then try to seek followers of that ideology like over 2 billion(and growing) in the case of this faith let’s see how many one is able to garner…that an illiterate bedouin who lived in Arabia over 1400 yrs ago has been able to do so(allegedly)makes him a time tested genius that none can even try to emulate

Muhammad Rasheed
- 1.) Muhammad's genius was that he threw all his chips in with the One God and completely submitted his whole will to Him, just as his ancestor Abraham did (peace be upon the messengers). The prophet had the brilliant idea to bet it all on the One who made him, and was rewarded in this life with the prophethood anointing. The Qur'an itself is the work of Allah, not Muhammad, hence why no human will be able to match its feat.

2.) The 'war verses' of the Qur'an are defensive in nature.

3.) The unrest in the world has nothing to do with Al-Islam, and is in fact part of the extended legacy of European colonialism, and the diabolical machinations of Western intelligence agencies and their mega-corporation partners. Wake up, please.

See Also:

The Obligatory Sacrifice in Blood

Obama's Critics Disagree with Obama's Decisions

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