Tuesday, May 19, 2015

For the Love of Doing Good


Javier Cruz Winnik - Looks like Beyonce and JayZ have been helping people in Baltimore and Haiti... who knew?

Khary Randolph - Lol maybe sometimes people don't have to brag about anything.

Pumkin Escobar - I wouldn't necessarily call it bragging but transparent visibility. Imagine if during the civil rights movement of the 60s, the likes of Harry Belafonte or Muhammad Ali or Ossie Davis and Ruby Dee didn't want their business or allegiance to that cause made public. When it comes to these sports of matters I don't believe shit should be done in the dark.

Heubert Khan Michael - He has this foundation that helps bright kids go through college, but Jay Z helps even more people and he doesn't want the public to know. He also said through one of his songs that "the greatest form of giving is anonymous to anonymous"  :)

David L. Grant - He also does scholarships for kids and various other things but he doesn't talk about those things.

Javier Cruz Winnik - Khary, my problem with them keeping something like this quiet is that if they desire to truly help these people, their reach along with their personal efforts could impact the situations they want affected even greater by lending their names to it. 

Imagine those that love these two musicians seeing these acts and now feeling like they want to help as well because their favorite artists are a part of it? Would we know so much about the Tibetan Freedom movement if not for The Beastie Boys? I personally wouldn't have, but because I knew them, I listened a bit closer when their name was associated with what was happening.

David L. Grant - If he lends his name it may look like an act of him trying to get money out of the community for album sales etc. like some artists/people do. Good works speak for themselves and people will talk about him. He needs not seek out advertisement.

Javier Cruz Winnik - I'd agree if he was a struggling artist or an artist who did stunts. Jay Z doesn't NEED anything at this point in his life. I believe that any action he does at this point is all about desire.

David L. Grant - Why advertise good works? Those who need to know, know. Those who don't care or are looking to label him badly will continue to do so. If someone really cares to know, do or achieve something they will.

Pumkin Escobar - It's not a matter of advertisement. Nobody thought that Harry Belafonte was trying to sell albums when he marched with and worked with MLK. nobody thought that Ali was trying to sell tickets to fights when he was actively working with and being seen with Malcolm X. They knew that those matters affected them regardless of how much money they made, but they also understood that their visibility within the Civil Rights cause strengthened that cause and bolstered its message.

Muhammad Rasheed - Nobody said Harry faked a baby or was in the illuminati either. People are effin' crazy.

I agree with the way they did it.

Pumkin Escobar - Nobody said those things because he wasn't about that #secretsquirrel life! He was up front and dared the system to fuck with his paper!

Muhammad Rasheed - Right now the charity work is out there and people are starting to know about it. Watch most of those people start talking trash on them in the classic "damned if you do, damned if you don't" song & dance. It's better to just do what's right based on how YOU see it and keep it moving. Like they did.

Pumkin Escobar - People talk about them now anyway, so my question is, why care either way?

Muhammad Rasheed - That's my point, Pumkin.

Whether they were up front and vocal about it or not, the people will have their own interpretation and spin, usually filtered through negativity. So they might as well have just done it the way they did. They didn't have to make a show about it, and according to sacred scripture, it's best that they didn't anyway.

Khary Randolph - I personally respect it more when you don't air out all your business. If you doing something positive that's good enough for me. Not like it doesn't get out anyways...we talking about it right now.

Muhammad Rasheed - Exactly.

Muhammad Rasheed - People that go around calling themselves "philanthropists" and throwing a press conference every time they write a check always seem so slimy.

Pumkin Escobar - See, from where I sit, it looks just the opposite. It's almost a step away from Michael Jordan not wanting to make a statement on anything because "Republicans buy sneakers too..." I think voice and visibility is VERY important in a social cause.

Muhammad Rasheed - Pumkin Escobar wrote: "See, from where I sit, it looks just the opposite." 

The fact that two people interpret the same action so differently means they should do it the way they did it. The way they thought was best. It just happened to coincide with my stance (and scripture).

Pumkin Escobar - I don't do scripture. Shit, that alone contradicts everything you stated. If that were the case, there'd BE no scripture. Scripture is literally people recording acts and deeds for the world to see and understand what a belief is about and where it stands, no?

Khary Randolph - @Pumkin Escobar… I think the point is someone like Jay-Z or BeyoncĂ© is damned if you do, damned if you don't. They will get scrutiny no matter what. Let's keep in mind these are two people doing something POSITIVE. Therefore, how they choose to go about it doesn't matter much to me. 

A few days ago I could have sworn I saw people on Facebook that Jay-Z doesn't do enough for the community. Now people see he is doing something and it still isn't enough. *kanye shrug*

Muhammad Rasheed - Pumkin Escobar wrote: “I don't do scripture.”

It seems like those two do, and they just helped a bunch of people in a worthy cause. 

Pumkin Escobar wrote: “Shit, that alone contradicts everything you stated.”

How do you figure considering you just admitted that you don’t do scripture? The scripture says it is best to do good deeds in secret lest one should boast. Boastful “upfront” charity is arrogant, and done to be seen by men. It’s weak and slimy.

Pumkin Escobar wrote: “If that were the case, there'd BE no scripture. Scripture is literally people recording acts and deeds for the world to see and understand what a belief is about and where it stands, no?”

A big part of scripture functions as the recorded deeds of people in the past to use as an instruction for the readers’ behavior. In this case, Jay-Z & Beyonce’s behavior reflects what they may have read in the scripture.

Pumkin Escobar - Again, agree to disagree.

Javier Cruz Winnik - so how bout this... why boast about how much flyer you are than me, and how much better than me you are, which is all over their music (putting people down and boosting their cool factor) and yet can't proclaim when they actually help people? Why is it okay to help people on the low, but put them down in public? Isn't that hypocritical? Muhammad, why would you compare what they're doing to scripture when they aren't about that life?

Muhammad Rasheed - 1.) That's the style of his art from that particular genre. It also functions as marketing for his brand as a business move.

2.) The biblical instruction for charity said a very specific thing about how to do it. Since they are actually demonstrating that precise instruction when it comes to that principle, what are you using to support the claim that they aren't about that life? The evidence shows that they are. Is your word -- the proclamation of a random FB user -- sufficient to say what their lives are about or not based on the negative opinion of an outsider?

Pumkin Escobar - So what you're saying is that it is scripturally (#wordbirth) feasible to be openly boastful, to preach avarice and lust so long as it is artful and that is the foundation of your business?

Muhammad Rasheed - lol No, I don't believe in strawman arguments, so that wouldn't be what I was saying. The scripture is giving precise instruction towards a very specific thing -- charity -- and is not giving instruction to how you promote/market your business. Why you would call the latter "scripturally feasible" even though it is not linked to charity at all, is a false argument you are subscribing to my position. I reject it.

Charity is one of the Top Righteous Deeds a believer can do to strengthen his/her soul, and is given great importance in the message of God. By contrast, marketing and promoting your business isn't mentioned at all. I can't help but consider the attempt to link the two to be either intellectually dishonest, or a demonstration of poor scriptural insight. 

btw I thought we were supposed to be agreeing to disagree on this topic?

Javier Cruz Winnik - Can't give someone credit for doing some hung from the Bible and then give them a pass for doing something against the Bible, that's hypocritical.

Muhammad Rasheed - In order to consider it "against the bible," first you have to provide the verse that features the instruction about promoting a business that they are violating. 

Muhammad Rasheed - In order to consider it "against the bible," first you have to provide the verse that features the instruction about promoting a business that they are violating.

Javier Cruz Winnik - Though shalt not covet your neighbors wife...? Do I really need to research and quote all of the sins they are committing Muhammad? Their exhibitions of drunkardness, lust, greed, pride and more are extremely evident in what they talk about quite often.

Muhammad Rasheed - Javier Cruz Winnik wrote: "Though shalt not covet your neighbors wife...?"

Where did Jaz-Z covet someone's wife?

Javier Cruz Winnik wrote: "Do I really need to research and quote all of the sins they are committing Muhammad?"

Only if you have a heaven or hell to put them in after a formal judgment. It WOULD help if you had a better grasp of scripture though.

Javier Cruz Winnik wrote: "Their exhibitions of drunkardness, lust, greed, pride and more are extremely evident in what they talk about quite often."

Talking about it in their art is the same thing as committing the sin? Who says?

Javier Cruz Winnik - I dont remember the actual quote, but one line I remember says that what goes into a man's mouth is not what defies a man because it gets digested and disposed of by the body. What comes out of a man's mouth comes from his heart and that can defile a man.

If you're talking about committing sins, how is that not a sinful? If he is talking about what he knows, then is he not talking about his experiences? He in turn is committing the sins he is talking about.

Muhammad Rasheed - We're judged on our actions, Javier. It's what you do or don't do, based on what physical deeds God Himself listed as sins and righteousness, that we will be judged by.

Talking about actions from the past... long gone... that in a God-fearing man are probably also long repented for, is not a sin.

Pumkin Escobar - You've accused me of making a false argument in order to bolster your position and accused me of intellectual dishonesty, which is rather offensive. I've subscribed no such tags to you or your argument, only debated it. If you are willing to dismiss the obvious parallel between deeds, then, I'll say no more.

Muhammad Rasheed - You did submit a false argument and subscribe it to me.

I didn't accuse you of intellectual dishonesty. I said I couldn't help but consider the attempt to link charity to business promotion either intellectual dishonesty, or a demonstration of poor scriptural insight. Since you are upset at the idea that I could accuse you of the former, then we can agree that it was a demonstration of a lack of scriptural insight.

If you disagree with that one too, then i am certainly open to having a discussion in which you prove that this is not so. Preferably within the topic context.

Naturally I will also consider "I'll say no more" to be on the same degree of seriousness as "agree to disagree" since we've returned for more. lol

Pumkin Escobar - Nope. You got it. Have a good one.

Muhammad Rasheed - You know, it actually makes people smarter to have philosophical arguments with folk of differing viewpoints. My Friend List is FULL of people who hold onto radically different viewpoints than my own (a few I actually consider enemies because of the shear number of nerves they grate upon). Discussions with them force me to support my pet contentions, and if I am honest with myself (and my opponent), I have to let go of those stances that I am forced to admit I can't back up with reason/logic/facts. Consequently I find that I have to fill in the void with items I CAN support, thus making my argument stronger.

No good comes from backing out of an argument, continuing to stubbornly hold onto flimsy ideologies and opinions that fail to hold up to any kind of scrutiny.

Muhammad Rasheed - Have a good day, Pumkin.

Pumkin Escobar - You got it. Have a good one.

Javier Cruz Winnik - It's great to have philosophical debates but you show that you don't want to see the other side of the coin in this debate. Jay doesn't only speak of past transgressions (church would call them testimonials) but currently speaks on those same ills. You say I don't know my scripture (I can't literally quote but I know a lot more than you allow yourself to believe) but it seems that you don't know Jay OR Beyoncé's current catalog since you seem to justify their current songs. Disagreeing about opinions is fine, but facts are facts.

Muhammad Rasheed - Javier Cruz Winnik wrote: "It's great to have philosophical debates but you show that you don't want to see the other side of the coin in this debate."

I've given you both ample opportunity to support your side. You respond with subjective negative opinion of what you think about JayZ, and what you think scripture might say.

You don't HAVE a side to the debate. Get your game up.

Javier Cruz Winnik - Muhammad, I've given you scripture about what goes into a man's mouth and what comes out of a man's mouth. You choose not to acknowledge my position. Get out of your own way.

Muhammad Rasheed - So you call a maybe scripture you half heard from somewhere, out of context, that isn't related to the actual list of sins God told us to watch out for, a legitimate response? To what exactly? Are you even going to try to support how this maybe scripture, that you don't even know what it really is, supports the point you make?

I've been acknowledging your position from the start. You contend that JayZ and his wife are not the people of God, that describing their old lifestyle in their art is the same as sinning, you ignore what the scriptures say about charity (one of the Top Good Deeds God requires of us mind) in favor of a maybe scripture that you half heard somewhere that you magically believe is more important than what God said about the charity these two provided. Is this not what you've been arguing? Tell me where my assessment of your side of the discussion is wrong.

Javier Cruz Winnik - See this is what you are doing that is ONLY seeing you're side if the story. I was a born again Christian at one point so the scripture I am talking about is not out of context. It's the Word that I've read and studied. Just because I can't quote the words verbatim doesn't mean I half heard. I've STATED that I knew the text but you decided to impose your own feelings about it. It is Mathew 15:11. Go read it for yourself. It is a verse that speaks on why what you say matters.

You are also ignoring all of the prideful, boastful, disrespectful lyrics they CURRENTLY use. Your personal posts in your page seem quite insiteful and I've liked them but you're really coming off like a pompous and self righteous ass here man. Stop reading what you WANT to read and read what is there. Please don't respond to this. I'm done with this convo.

Muhammad Rasheed - Javier Cruz Winnik wrote: “See this is what you are doing that is ONLY seeing you're side if the story.”

lol What side of the story were you supposed to be seeing?  The commitment to your negative opinion about these two?  So far your point is that the content of their lyrics is somehow worse than the righteousness of their charity.  Why in the world would I take that opinion seriously?

Javier Cruz Winnik wrote: “I was a born again Christian at one point…”

So it’s funny that you are so stubbornly dismissive against how important charity is on the Path of God.  I guess it doesn’t mean much to used to be born again then, hm?

Javier Cruz Winnik wrote: “…so the scripture I am talking about is not out of context.”

No?  Okay, then let’s look at it.

The scribes and Pharisees called themselves checking Jesus’ followers by asking him why didn’t they wash their hands before they ate.  Jesus countered by asking them why they were contradicting God’s commandment by telling people they didn’t have to honor their parents.  Then he linked their actions to a prophecy from Elias, pointing out that even though they claimed to be the men of God, they only teach the doctrines of men.  

Javier Cruz Winnik wrote: “It's the Word that I've read and studied. Just because I can't quote the words verbatim doesn't mean I half heard. I've STATED that I knew the text but you decided to impose your own feelings about it. It is Mathew 15:11. Go read it for yourself. It is a verse that speaks on why what you say matters.”

Now let’s compare it to the issue on topic.  JayZ and Beyonce’s art is not being passed off as doctrinal scripture by anyone.  Not them, not me.  It’s just how they express themselves in their chosen medium, and doesn’t – in any way, shape or form – represent the Pharisees trying to pass off their own doctrines as the Word of God.  They did however perform a potent charitable act that absolutely lined up with the Word.  Their actions represented the fruit of the believer.

Javier Cruz Winnik wrote: “You are also ignoring all of the prideful, boastful, disrespectful lyrics they CURRENTLY use.”

Which one of the Ten Commandments are they breaking by creating fictional music lyrics like this?  Tell me why shouldn’t I ignore this as completely irrelevant?  It’s just songs.  Songs in a genre that often mimic the same formula.   I don’t even follow that music, am quite religious, and yet not even I am as judgmental and negative against it as you are (which sounds like raw haterade, to be honest).  But you really enjoy expressing a committed negativity towards people you don’t know, from an embarrassingly flimsy scriptural base.  

Javier Cruz Winnik wrote: “Your personal posts in your page seem quite insiteful and I've liked them but you're really coming off like a pompous and self righteous ass here man.”

You’re coming across as if you are desperately attempting to save face.  You’ve failed to use reason and logic to explain your side of the discussion.  You reference the verse without even trying to explain how it’s supposed to support your point.  You mention a former born-again Christian status as if it magically means whatever you say about a biblical reference MUST be the automatic truth, while failing to demonstrate a single trait of a comparative religious scholar.  And now you are calling me ‘pompous’ and ‘self righteous’ for calling you out on your love for negativity and disdain for logic/reason in your arguments.  Tell me why I should take your stance seriously, please.  You don’t have anything to stand on.  If you did then I would like to believe you would try to reveal it.  Or was I asking too much of you…?

Javier Cruz Winnik wrote: “Stop reading what you WANT to read and read what is there.”

hahaha

Javier Cruz Winnik wrote: “Please don't respond to this.”

Too late.  Alas.

Javier Cruz Winnik wrote: “I'm done with this convo.”

You were done a LOOOONG time ago, Javier.  You don’t wear pride very well.

Carlos Lacayo - People need to be able to visualize leaders

They need to see that people that are like them but make tons of money and are famous care. 

We need famous people to be upfront about it. 

Anonymous is cool when your the avg dude but when your famous your face is just as important as their donations

Muhammad Rasheed - They did it anonymously and the word still got out. I think this way will be more effective. If they made a show about it, people would've been more likely to talk trash than be motivated. "They just trying to stay relevant," et cetera.

Pumkin Escobar - Who said anything about a show, tho?

Muhammad Rasheed - Anyone saying they should've been "upfront."

Perhaps you all need to define what that means? When I read it it sounds like a staged show. 

What does it mean when people say they should be upfront?

Pumkin Escobar - It means the opposite if telling dream hampton to stop tweeting about the very subject and to delete the tweets. It's really THAT simple. Why would I wanna fuck with you if you tweet about your new business venture that you want me to subscribe to, but you wanna be quiet about what you're doing for a very important matter that affects all of us? Why would you have NO problem rapping about your drug dealer exploits, even to this very day, but wanna be hush-hush about matters of social importance? That's shit I can't trust. It's like you wanna keep it quiet so that when someone DOES critique you on it, you can then go, "A-HA!!! But I've done XYZ!" I mean, what does it mean to be up front? As if we haven't seen it before?

Muhammad Rasheed - Pumkin Escobar wrote: “It means the opposite if telling dream hampton to stop tweeting about the very subject and to delete the tweets. It's really THAT simple.”

Jay-Z told this Hampton person to delete tweets? 

Pumkin Escobar wrote: “Why would I wanna fuck with you if you tweet about your new business venture that you want me to subscribe to, but you wanna be quiet about what you're doing for a very important matter that affects all of us?”

Because a businessperson is supposed to market/promote his business, while his opinion about a social cause is irrelevant. EVERYONE has varying opinions about that stuff. It’s definitely not important that this person share his opinion about it.

Pumkin Escobar wrote: “Why would you have NO problem rapping about your drug dealer exploits, even to this very day, but wanna be hush-hush about matters of social importance?”

Because in his art he creates based on what he knows and where the heat of his passion came from. Everyone is opinionated about social items, but who among us really KNOWS it? It’s better that he and his wife create a positive action than make an empty opinionated statement. The action is FAR more powerful.

Pumkin Escobar - We're gonna have to agree to disagree on the matter, bruh.

Javier Cruz Winnik - Muhammad, you mentioned that Jay Z raps about what he knows... doesn't he know philanthropy? Why can't he rap about that? People ALREADY talk trash about him, and usually it's people that say he doesn't do anything to help the place he comes from... why not respond with this action? What it tells me is that he's not promoting it because it's JUST a tax write off... otherwise he'd promote his charity. Most people who do donate speak on it because they want others to follow their example. This smells of fish...

Muhammad Rasheed - Javier Cruz Winnik wrote: "Muhammad, you mentioned that Jay Z raps about what he knows... doesn't he know philanthropy? Why can't he rap about that?"

"Charity" is helping people because it's the right thing to do, and the principle instructions for it come from religion. In those instructions you don't do it to be seen of men, because it becomes boastful and arrogant. Since that's the example they appear to be following, NOT rapping about it would very much demonstrate he does indeed know about it.

Javier Cruz Winnik wrote: "People ALREADY talk trash about him..."

That's why it is best to do it for God and not for what other humans may think.

Javier Cruz Winnik wrote: "...and usually it's people that say he doesn't do anything to help the place he comes from..."

Who cares what negative, clueless critics think? Personally I don't believe in EVER doing anything because of what negative critics believe. The hell with those people.

Javier Cruz Winnik wrote: "...why not respond with this action?"

This action is their response to what they feel is right. It is a great example for us and their peers. Notice that they didn't have to say a word. The truth comes to light. 

Javier Cruz Winnik wrote: "What it tells me is that he's not promoting it because it's JUST a tax write off... otherwise he'd promote his charity."

lol Meanwhile, wealthy folk who do things JUST for the tax right off can't WAIT to label themselves "philanthropists" and go around boasting about what they give. You know the people of God by the fruit they bear, but first, you must know the people of God when you see them. You do that by knowing what the scripture says about these principles. 

Javier Cruz Winnik wrote: "Most people who do donate speak on it because..."

Because they want to show off all the money they have and their lifestyle, exactly the way scripture said.

Javier Cruz Winnik - How can you mention JayZ and religion in the same sentence? They both speak on MANY sins they are proud to be a part of. Their actions prove they aren't followers of any religion so why give them credit for following one?

Best to do it for God? They do NOTHING for God, in the Bibleague doesn't it say it's better to be a sinner than to be on the fence? You can't have it both ways or you're worse than the sinner.

Do you honestly believe JayZ and Beyonce are people of God? If that's the case then we will never agree on a subject about this couple. I see nothing Godly about them. Beyonce USE to but now... she's been drinking, she's been drinkin... lol

Muhammad Rasheed - Javier Cruz Winnik wrote: "How can you mention JayZ and religion in the same sentence?"

It's easy when they do stuff that happens to line up to actual religious instruction. Especially stuff that comes across as counter-intuitive to anti-religious folk.

Javier Cruz Winnik wrote: "They both speak on MANY sins they are proud to be a part of."

Such as...?

Javier Cruz Winnik wrote: "Their actions prove they aren't followers of any religion so why give them credit for following one?"

Charity is a major good deed for the believer in the One God. This actually transcends the individual religions themselves. God is equally serious about the concept in both the bible and the Qur'an.

Javier Cruz Winnik wrote: "Best to do it for God? They do NOTHING for God..."

This is a subjective, judgmental statement you are making about people you do not know personally. Should I take this comment seriously? Meanwhile, they performed this [very important] spiritual act that actually lined up to religious scripture. YOU said they "do nothing for God," but their actions just showed that they do. Who should I believe? Tell me why I should take you seriously on this item, please. I'm genuinely curious.

Javier Cruz Winnik wrote: "...in the Bibleague doesn't it say it's better to be a sinner than to be on the fence? You can't have it both ways or you're worse than the sinner."

It's the same. You either believe or you don't believe. Your actions reflect your level of belief and your commitment. Do what God says and your actions will reflect that belief. That's how you can know the people of God by the fruit they bear.

Javier Cruz Winnik wrote: "Do you honestly believe JayZ and Beyonce are people of God?"

Charity is one of the very top good deeds a believer can do, and God says that it will be best if you did it anonymously. Did these two not reflect that belief? The real question is why do you doubt?

Javier Cruz Winnik wrote: "If that's the case then we will never agree on a subject about this couple."

I peeped that from the beginning.

Javier Cruz Winnik wrote: "I see nothing Godly about them."

And what are you using as your criterion for judgment?

Javier Cruz Winnik wrote: "Beyonce USE to but now... she's been drinking, she's been drinkin... lol"

Is drinking considered a sin now? According to what? I'll admit to having an issue with negative judgmental people, who judge others based on their own subjective bias alone. Again, please tell me why I should take your judgmental attitude about these two seriously?

Javier Cruz Winnik - Muhammad, if you don't want to see the lust, pride and disrespect they exhibit in their music, or don't want to see that expression as sinful, then there is nothing left to be said about this.

Muhammad Rasheed - lol Javier, all I'm interested in is what God said about certain items, and what His terms & conditions for those items are. If your negative judgmental opinions about someone you don't know fails to line up to what God said about it, as opposed to opinionated bits based on what you think it might mean, then I'm not interested in it. LOTS of people are passionately opinionated against scripture and religion while not knowing anything about them. I'm not interested in those opinions. They are worthless.
 
Carlos Lacayo - They will always be trashed no matter what they do

So just be upfront

Muhammad Rasheed - They will always be trashed no matter what they do, so just do it the way they felt like doing it.

Carlos Lacayo - They can do whatever they want nobody is saying that 

I personally think them being outspoken and actual leaders in plain site is much more valuable tool

But then again jay-z is the same guy trying to make a penny of "occupy wall street"

Muhammad Rasheed - ^Bam! 

Yeah, so it's better if they not make a show of their charity. Just be good and personable the way they did it. Making an "upfront" song & dance over it will just be a waste, and more fodder for people to make up nonsense about.


See Also: "A Highly-Publicized Gift from the Normally Secretive Brothers"

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