Friday, April 3, 2015

RESPONSE - Former Muslim Turned Christian Conversion Tale


Kirb Brimstone[tags me in link]



Muhammad Rasheed - Another one of these guys? pfft...

Kirb Brimstone - What do you mean by "Another one of these guys?"

Muhammad Rasheed - Yes. These guys are very popular for y'all to circulate on FB.

They also lack value.



Kirb Brimstone - You didn't answer my question. What do you mean by "Another one of these guys?"

Kirb Brimstone - Did you even watch to the video?

Muhammad Rasheed - Kirb Brimstone wrote: "You didn't answer my question."

Did you answer my question asking you to clarify the "If you say so" response? Did you give me an example to the "close-minded" accusation like I asked?  Don't be an @sshole, Kirb.

Kirb Brimstone wrote: "What do you mean by 'Another one of these guys?'"

Did you see the links I posted with two guys exactly like that to which I responded on my blog? Former Muslims who are professional speakers that vilify my faith playing on their audience's ignorance. Those guys.

Muhammad Rasheed - Kirb Brimstone wrote: "Did you even watch to the video?"

I'm watching it now so I can add this dude to my collection. You realize the clip is 50 minutes long, right?

Muhammad Rasheed - 1.) The example he used that demonstrated how his father was kind, loving and peaceful is to point out that he joined the US military the second he got to America.

Kirb Brimstone - Muhammad Rasheed wrote: I'm watching it now so I can add this dude to my collection. You realize the clip is 50 minutes long, right?”

Then maybe you should write that this is "one of those guys" before you finished watching it.

Muhammad Rasheed - 2.) Wonders how his mom could learn what Christian westerners are really like if none ever invited her into their home. Meanwhile there are an awful lot of those westerners that demonize her people people they are different. Do you hear how that same demographic treats Obama, even though he is a self-confessed Christian himself?

Kirb Brimstone - 1.) The example he used that demonstrated how his father was kind, loving and peaceful is to point out that he joined the US military the second he got to America.

Oh that's a nit pick if I've ever heard one Moe. You're not even done watch the video and already you write this trivial foolishness? 

What does him telling his Christian audience that Muslims are generally peaceful people and using his father as an example have to really do with anything?

Muhammad Rasheed - Kirb Brimstone wrote: "Then maybe you should write that this is "one of those guys" before you finished watching it.

If he turns out not to be a dumbass like those other two then I'll apologize.

Muhammad Rasheed - Kirb Brimstone wrote: "What does him telling his Christian audience that Muslims are generally peaceful people and using his father as an example have to really do with anything?"

I'm just jotting notes as I go. Don't respond to them yet unless you want to delay me getting to the end of the clip by responding to your nonsense.

Make yourself useful and answer the questions I asked of you just prior to you pressing me to answer one of your questions.

Kirb Brimstone - I have a feeling nothing will get you to apologize and no matter what this guy says it's gonna be "dumbass" to you.

Muhammad Rasheed - 3.) There is a difference between the "stereotypes of the west" and what God said about Christians in scripture.

Muhammad Rasheed - Kirb Brimstone wrote: "I have a feeling nothing will get you to apologize and no matter what this guy says it's gonna be 'dumbass' to you."

This is a close-minded comment. Perhaps you should wait until I get to the end before you start with your foolishness...?

Muhammad Rasheed - 4.) His example of "being a good Muslim" is reading the Qur'an in Arabic before he's old enough to understand it.

Muhammad Rasheed - 5.) He makes the comment that Christians generally don't know why they believe what they believe, but very tellingly, the Former Muslim tells us that it was his mom that told him what to think when it came to knowing why he believed in Islam.

Muhammad Rasheed - 6.) "Most miraculous man that ever lived" isn't an Islamic principle. Part of the "Belief in the Prophets" pillar was that we aren't to uphold any of the prophets over any other. So how was he taught that from an Islamic standpoint? Besides, surely Moses was given permission to perform more miracles than Jesus did, right?

Muhammad Rasheed - 7.) "Gonna come back at the end of time and initiate Judgment" also isn't what the Qur'an says. All of the prophets will return to bear witness to/fro those they preached to during their lifetime. That's why Jesus is coming back, for the same reason they will all come back: to fulfill the final task in their prophethood role. Are you sure he was supposed to be a Muslim?

Muhammad Rasheed - 8.) He said he told David that he was just “making this stuff up” because David had his own understanding of scripture based on his own self-study and dialogs, compared to the usual responses he received from other Christians. 

9.) “The key was here was a man that was passionate about his faith, who was passionate about God, who was willing to talk with me. Even though he was my total foil, we were exact opposites, he was a Christian and I was a Muslim, we became best friends because he cared about his God.”

Muhammad Rasheed - 10.) He said it makes a big difference if someone who tells you that your worldview is wrong cares enough to be willing to die for you.

Muhammad Rasheed - 11.) Disagreeing with a particular doctrine doesn't mean I'm trying to tear down the individual who is presenting it.

Muhammad Rasheed - 12.) "Relationships are critical for sharing the Gospel." You may wish to think about how it comes across to other people when you duck their questions all while pressing them to answer yours, Kirb.  It's not an endearing habit.

Muhammad Rasheed - 13.) He says that he came to the conclusion that the New Testament couldn't have been altered in a way in which we wouldn't have been able to detect it. That the one we hold today is the same NT from the fragments.

Muhammad Rasheed - 14.) He said that literally it says in Surah 5, Ayats 72-73 that it says if you believe that Jesus is God you will go to hell. It says:

72. They do blaspheme who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help. 

73 They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.

I think the "blasphemers among them" part is significant, and refers to those who also they believe this unforgivable thing, still have their good deeds outweighing their bad deeds though. But don't take my word on it though. Why risk hellfire? It's better to repent and worship the One God alone. Stop worshipping the messenger.

Muhammad Rasheed 15.) "Did Jesus claim to be God or not?" Why would this be a serious question? Does he not understand how the revelation of sacred scripture through the prophets even works?

Muhammad Rasheed - 15.) "Did Jesus claim to be God or not?" Why would this be a serious question? Does he not understand how the revelation of sacred scripture through the prophets even works?

Muhammad Rasheed - 16.) "And I had been taught that Muhammad was the greatest man who had ever lived." (see: #6 above)

Muhammad Rasheed - 17.) His reference to the "earliest gospel" in which it shows Jesus saying he is god. Which gospel was that? One of the four that we have today?

Muhammad Rasheed - 18.) He said he doesn't have time to get into the details of why he believes the things he said about the Qur'an's preservation and Muhammad's life, but that it is "in his book." Kirb, do you have this book so we may analyze these claims?  Scan the relevant pages and post them, please.

Muhammad Rasheed - 19.) He said that Muslims put a lot of stock in dreams and visions, giving his own opinion as to why, and told the Christian audience not to take for granted their belief that God speaks to them directly. God said He listens to the prayers of all those that call upon Him, but there is indeed a strict rule to how He chooses to commune with mankind. Here's what God said about the matter in the Qur'an:

Surah 42
51 "It is not fitting for a man that Allah should speak to him except by inspiration, or from behind a veil, or by the sending of a messenger to reveal, with Allah's permission, what Allah wills: for He is Most High, Most Wise."

Muhammad Rasheed - 20.) Interesting that when he reached a low moment of confidence in his beliefs, he didn't go to the Word of God, but opted for the "send me a dream" route. Naturally I would expect you to consider my contempt for this concept to be "closed-minded." lol But the Book has been sent here as a guide to mankind, and it has very definitive answers regarding these very matters that plagued him after his three year "critical study" of Christianity. Why didn't he go to the Qur'an instead of asking for an ambiguous dream?

Muhammad Rasheed - 21.) Takes note that the doctrinal (hellfire) aspect of the consequences for Nabeel's conversion are only an afterthought to him. He was FAR more concerned at the cultural/traditional part. It explains many of the things he said, and why his Islam understanding was so weak and surface-level.

Muhammad Rasheed - 22.) "For the first time in his life" he goes to the Qur'an for comfort/knowledge/wisdom instead of ritual recitation or searching for items for debate during this low moment. What happened to when he was supposed to have been studying Islam/Qur'an critically? But I suppose you would consider that "trivial foolishness" to bring that up, too, huh, Kirb?

Muhammad Rasheed - 23.) RE: the part where he's complaining that the Qur'an didn't apply to him, but the bible had the answer to everything he asked. At that point he had already made up his mind about converting, so he was looking for something to comfort the upcoming morning period of separation from his folks. He found stern warnings against converting in the Qur'an of course. Naturally their wouldn't be any comfort in that regard. lol In the bible he found a verse that he used as a generic greeting card moment to apply to what he felt in the moment. I'm supposed to take that seriously? 

Then he asked if God even heard his prayers, and found a biblical footnote showing him where to go. He should recognize the Qur'anic verse that I referenced above in which God said He hears the prayers of all those who call upon Him. He didn't consider that of comfort? It comforts me as a believer. I'm not even in med school...

Muhammad Rasheed - 24.) In the part where he's "interacting with God in the pages of scripture," where he said "Jesus was not unfamiliar with the cost," what does God say about Jesus in the Qur'an? What about that cost? Of saying of the messenger that of which is not true, and hinging your soul upon it? Was that not important? Why not?

Muhammad Rasheed - 25.) "I heard these words: 'Because this isn't about you.'"

Perhaps it was the adversary telling you this, rejoicing in that his scheme to help you give in to your temptations to accept a doctrine whose central thesis is the One Unforgivable Sin.

Muhammad Rasheed - 26.) "...after jumping through these hoops, then He MIGHT be happy enough with me to let me into heaven..."

This is strawman nonsense Christian missionaries are taught to tell weak Muslims. It absolutely does not reflect the message of God in the Qur'an. God said several times, definitively, that if you believe in Him, do good deeds (he lists the top good deeds at least 3 times), avoid the temptations of sin, and repent of those sins when you mess up, you will indeed get your reward. You will have no need to fear, nor shall you grieve. The revealed message to mankind from the Lord of all the worlds. God does not lie. where are the missionaries who specialize in converting these weak cultural Muslims getting this wishy-washy "maybe you'll go to heaven and maybe you won't after jumping through all these Five Pillar hoops?" 

God does not lie, but mankind (and the unseen adversary) often lie. I choose to believe God and am therefore saved. You may keep your lies. I have no use for Paul.

Muhammad Rasheed - CONCLUSION: Like the other two cultural Former Muslims, Nabeel Qureshi was also weak in faith, insight and understanding in what he claimed to believe. He never subscribed to Islam based on his own desire to strengthen his soul, but to please his parents. He followed it because that is what he was raised to do. His reasons for why he believed in Islam weren't his reasons, they were the route memorized reasons his mom gave him. Nabeel himself never believed. His presentation was weaker than the other "these guys" because it had more fluff to it, and was on a strict time restriction. Even still, the comments he did make revealed a weak understanding of what he claimed he used to believe in. If he truly believed in what the Qur'an said, if he really critically studied it to show himself approved in the eyes of his Lord, he would be a stronger Muslim today.  In other words, yes, I find him to be a dumbass just like those other guys.  I don't know what you expected to be any different. Weak cultural Former Muslims who convert to Christianity and are popular on the evangelical lecture circuit are so far all alike. What else do you have that is more challenging for me?

Muhammad Rasheed - The interesting thing about Kirb is that he doesn't listen to a damned thing I say, and yet remains confused as to how his efforts to convert me fail.

At least Deac will have the common sense to custom tailor his argument towards what I actually list as my deal breakers in his doctrine.

Abdur Rasheed - That's not really interesting. That's just Kirby tripe. The opposite of interesting.

Muhammad Rasheed - Well, I mean "interesting" like watching a rodent in an experiment and recording the stuff it does or doesn't do according to various stimuli. Like that.

Not "interesting" like Avengers 2.

Kirb Brimstone - I notice you critique him not hos argiements.

Kirb Brimstone - Not ducking anything like I said I am at work. Can't really spend work hours hdoing this but I can't wait to respond when I can.

Muhammad Rasheed - Kirb Brimstone wrote: "Not ducking anything like I said I am at work."

You deliberately ducked direct questions before you went to work, and before you pressed me to answer questions of yours.

Kirb Brimstone wrote: “I notice you critique him not hos argiements.”

I guess being at work is affecting your ability to "notice" stuff, too, then?

Kirb Brimstone - Okay. I'm back. Thanks for your patience. I had hoped you would interact with the arguments not the try to attack the man. I don't care why he came to knowledge of God I care about the about what reasons he had to believe this versus that.

I agree with him that there is more evidence supporting Christianity then supporting Islam.

But let me respond to some of the things you said and some of the questions you have.

I’m not going to get sidetracked into your accusation

I’m going to address your accusation of him being a “cultural” Islamist. It’s a red herring Moe.

Moe said, “Why risk hellfire? It's better to repent and worship the One God alone. Stop worshipping the messenger.”

Moe as a Christian I believe I do worship the One God and Jesus isn’t just a messenger but a the second person of the God head. SO I can pose the same question, “Why risk hellfire?” You reject Jesus who claimed to be God he will reject you. Stop worshipping a false God.

Moe said, “He reference to the "earliest gospel" in which it shows Jesus saying he is god. Which gospel was that? One of the four that we have today?”

The earliest Gospel is the Gospel of Mark, the same Gospel that predated Muhammad and the same one written months after the resurrection.
"Did Jesus claim to be God or not?" Why would this be a serious question? Does he not understand how the revelation of sacred scripture through the prophets even works?

If Jesus claims to be God and the Quran says that Jesus is a prophet of God then it would certainly be a serious question. Reember this was after he did the research found that the Gospels are not corrupted as some Muslims believe.

Perhaps he believes the Quran when it says:

Sura 5:68 (Al-Maida) - "Say: 'People of the Book (Christians and Jews), you stand for nothing until you observe the Torah and the Gospel and that which is revealed to you from your Lord."

Sura 4:136 (Al-Nisa) - "0 believers, have faith in Allah and His Apostle, in the Book He has revealed to His Apostle, and in the Book He formerly revealed (Bible). He that denies Allah, His angels, His Scriptures, His apostles, and the Last Day, has strayed far from the truth."

Sura 5:48 (Al-Maida) - "And to you We have revealed the Book with the truth confirming what was revealed before it in the other Books, and standing as a guardian over it."

Maybe he read Sura 6:115 (AI-An'am) that says: "Perfected are the words of your Lord in truth and justice. None can change them. He is the Hearing, the Knowing" and learning that the Bible was fully written and confirmed and compiled by the Lord 500 years before Muhammed was even born. If the Bible has been changed then the Quran isn’t true.

Kirb Brimstone - Moe said, “He said he doesn't have time to get into the details of why he believes the things he said about the Qur'an's preservation and Muhammad's life, but that it is "in his book." Kirb, do you have this book so we may analyze these claims?”

I’ll do you one better. I have a video: Nabeel Qureshi: The Text of the Qur’an - Apologetics to Islam

Moe said, “Interesting that when he reached a low moment of confidence in his beliefs, he didn't go to the Word of God”

Actually he said He did read the Quran and found nothing and then went to the Bible.

Moe said, “I choose to believe God and am therefore saved. You may keep your lies. I have no use for Paul.”

Paul wasn’t mentioned. Nowhere did he mention Paul. Even though some of Paul’s writings are predate the Gospel. But again nothing about Paul.

I always wondered why do Muslims love picking on Paul.

Does Sura 3:55 not say, “Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee SUPERIOR to those who reject faith, TO THE DAY OF RESURRECTION: Then shall ye all return unto Me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute."

Does Sura 61:14 not say, “O ye who believe! Be ye helpers of Allah: as said Jesus the son of Mary to the Disciples, "Who will be my helpers to (the work of) Allah?" Said the Disciples, "We are Allah's helpers!" then a portion of the Children of Israel believed, and a portion disbelieved: But We gave power to those who believed against their enemies, AND THEY BECAME THE ONES THAT PREVAILED.”

Allah gave Christ’s followers the power to prevail over the disbelievers, and made them superior till the day of resurrection. Yet the ones that prevailed were the Apostles such as Paul, as well as his followers. This means that if the Quran is correct, then Paul’s message is the truth since it has become dominant and has prevailed over all other opposing messages.

Kirb Brimstone - Hey Moe do you read Arabic? If so what do you think about Sura 3:54?

Muhammad Rasheed - Kirb Brimstone wrote: “I had hoped you would interact with the arguments not the try to attack the man.”

Did I attack him? I disagreed with what he said, and with what he said his reasons were. How was that attacking him?

Kirb Brimstone wrote: “I don't care why he came to knowledge of God…”

I care that he rejected God for the blasphemy, after clearly never studying Islam for himself. It was the key to his whole speech.

Kirb Brimstone wrote: “…I care about the about what reasons he had to believe this versus that.”

Yes, that’s the part that stood out.

Kirb Brimstone wrote: “I agree with him that there is more evidence supporting Christianity then supporting Islam.”

I 100% disagree. The most important one is that God said worship only Him and Him alone, yet Paul says now God wants us to worship the messenger as His son. That was a clear scratch of the record needle in the history of Abrahamic sacred scripture.

Kirb Brimstone wrote: “I’m not going to get sidetracked into your accusation”

I just want you to knock it off. It’s very irritating.

Kirb Brimstone wrote: “I’m going to address your accusation of him being a ‘cultural’ Islamist. It’s a red herring Moe.”

Call it whatever you wish. He admits that he cared more about the family/traditional aspects of his “faith” than he did the doctrine. That’s “cultural Muslim” 101. He never truly believed. He followed it because his parents instructed him to do so, and he loved them. That’s all.

Kirb Brimstone wrote: “Moe said, ‘Why risk hellfire? It's better to repent and worship the One God alone. Stop worshipping the messenger.’ Moe as a Christian I believe I do worship the One God and Jesus isn’t just a messenger but a the second person of the God head.”

Meanwhile he was the last in the line of prophet-messengers under Isaac, and performed the exact same role as his fellows… teaching the people in scripture and wisdom, forbidding what was wrong, enjoining what was right, and giving the warning of the Terrible Day to come.

Kirb Brimstone wrote: “SO I can pose the same question, ‘Why risk hellfire?’”

I worship the One God of Abraham, the true in faith, who practiced uncompromising monotheism, and would never commit the sin of subscribing partners/sons to the One God. Between the two of us, Kirb, I do not court hell.

Kirb Brimstone wrote: “You reject Jesus…”

I wouldn’t even be a Muslim if I rejected the Christ Jesus, son of Mary. I am commanded by my Lord to believe in ALL the prophet-messengers. I follow the message of Jesus, love him and recognize his message as true. Both his Lord and my Lord are One. Glory be to He!

Kirb Brimstone wrote: “…who claimed to be God he will reject you.”

Jesus never claimed to be divine. He was only a man, anointed to a great mission.

Kirb Brimstone wrote: “Stop worshipping a false God.”

Do you consider the One God of Abraham, who created the Christ from scratch in his mother’s womb, to be a false God now? Do you love courting hellfire then? I suggest you knock that off, too, or your afterlife will not go the way you hope.

Kirb Brimstone wrote: “Moe said, ‘His reference to the ‘earliest gospel’ in which it shows Jesus saying he is god. Which gospel was that? One of the four that we have today?’ The earliest Gospel is the Gospel of Mark…”

That’s what I thought. Thanks.

Kirb Brimstone wrote: “…the same Gospel that predated Muhammad…”

Even if I did believe that gospel was written by Jesus’ companion, that would truly be an odd thing to say. Didn’t the Law of Moses come before the Gospel of Jesus? So do you follow Moses’ words trumping those of Jesus? You and Nabeel seem to have a problem understanding how revealed scripture actually functions.

Kirb Brimstone wrote: “…and the same one written months after the resurrection.”

“Months” is very, very optimistic. lol Christian scholarship actually recognizes that this book was not written by the disciple of Jesus the Pauline Christian believes.

SOURCE: An Introduction to the New Testament and the Origins of Christianity by Delbert Burkett

Kirb Brimstone wrote: “If Jesus claims to be God and the Quran says that Jesus is a prophet of God then it would certainly be a serious question.”

Considering what the Qur’an said about the claims of Jesus’ divinity? No, this would not be a serious question for an actual Muslim. In fact, for someone who actually believed and recognized the Qur’an as true, it would be absurd. Only a “cultural Muslim” who was weak in faith would take the concept seriously.

Kirb Brimstone wrote: “Reember this was after he did the research found that the Gospels are not corrupted as some Muslims believe.”

His research was weak. Obviously. Did you see the link to my source above? A PhD Christian scholar, expert in early Christian works, admits that the earliest gospel we have wasn’t written by Mark at all, but by Pauline-inspired evangelicals. That means the NT wasn’t “corrupted,” the entire thing is a lie. It was the message of Jesus himself that was corrupted; usurped by your favorite false prophet. THAT’S the point that the corruption happened, not INSIDE of the NT, but at the point of the NT’s very arrival on the scene.

Kirb Brimstone wrote: “Perhaps he believes the Quran when it says: Sura 5:68 (Al-Maida) – ‘Say: 'People of the Book (Christians and Jews), you stand for nothing until you observe the Torah and the Gospel and that which is revealed to you from your Lord.’"

In light of what was just revealed, do you think the Qur’an meant the false writings of Paul and his evangelical cronies when it said “Gospel,” or was it referencing the actual, verbal message of Jesus spoken to the people during his lifetime?

Kirb Brimstone wrote: “Sura 4:136 (Al-Nisa) – ‘0 believers, have faith in Allah and His Apostle, in the Book He has revealed to His Apostle, and in the Book He formerly revealed (Bible). He that denies Allah, His angels, His Scriptures, His apostles, and the Last Day, has strayed far from the truth.’"

Yes, God revealed His message to Jesus, who spoke it in his travels. But what did that have to do with Paul’s works that compose the NT? In the Qur’an, what did God say about the Christ telling people to worship him as a god? It conflicts DRAMATICALLY with the NT’s claims, does it not? So why would Allah be talking about what Paul cooked up instead of what He told Jesus to say?

Kirb Brimstone wrote: “Sura 5:48 (Al-Maida) – ‘And to you We have revealed the Book with the truth confirming what was revealed before it in the other Books, and standing as a guardian over it.’"

Yes, Jesus’ Book was an oral one; it was Paul’s doctrine that was writ.

Kirb Brimstone wrote: “Maybe he read Sura 6:115 (AI-An'am) that says: "Perfected are the words of your Lord in truth and justice. None can change them. He is the Hearing, the Knowing’ and learning that the Bible was fully written and confirmed and compiled by the Lord 500 years before Muhammed was even born. If the Bible has been changed then the Quran isn’t true.”

God’s message hasn’t changed. Notice that He has always said worship Him and Him alone and never give Him partners/sons. His message in the Qur’an is the same as that taught by Jesus, by Moses before him, and by Abraham before him, even back to the days of Noah and Adam, the First in Faith. The fact that Paul’s falsehoods were written and compiled at all mean very little. The important part was that Islam picked up where Jesus’ oral Gospel left off, continuing the message of uncompromising monotheism of the One God to the close of canon.

Muhammad Rasheed - Kirb Brimstone wrote: “I’ll do you one better. I have a video…”

Thanks. I knew that you would. I’ll have to dig into it later since you waited until 2am to finally respond.

Kirb Brimstone wrote: “Moe said, ‘Interesting that when he reached a low moment of confidence in his beliefs, he didn't go to the Word of God’ Actually he said He did read the Quran and found nothing and then went to the Bible.”

And I pointed out that the Qur’an did reflect answers to certain questions he asked that he either chose not to acknowledge because he had already decided to convert, or he lied about reading it at that point. I also pointed out that he said he was looking for “comfort” which, in the context of his new heartfelt conversion to a faith hinged upon the one unforgivable sin, he certainly wouldn’t find in the Qur’an.

Kirb Brimstone wrote: “Moe said, ‘I choose to believe God and am therefore saved. You may keep your lies. I have no use for Paul.’ Paul wasn’t mentioned. Nowhere did he mention Paul. Even though some of Paul’s writings are predate the Gospel. But again nothing about Paul.”

Paul and the New Testament are interchangeable terms. If you talk about the one you are talking about the other.

Kirb Brimstone wrote: “I always wondered why do Muslims love picking on Paul.”

Wonder no more! It was Paul who usurped the message of Jesus from his brother James, and told the people to worship the messenger of God which God Himself hates.

Kirb Brimstone wrote: “Does Sura 3:55 not say, ‘Behold! Allah said: ‘O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme.”

That would be no less than proclaiming Jesus was a god, and the son of God. THOSE blasphemous falsehoods specifically, since you seem confused on the topic.

Kirb Brimstone wrote: “I will make those who follow thee SUPERIOR to those who reject faith, TO THE DAY OF RESURRECTION”

The companions of Jesus were indeed superior over those who plotted against him, just as the Lord said.

Kirb Brimstone wrote: “Then shall ye all return unto Me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute."

And on the Last Day the Christ will return and bear witness for/against those he personally preached the message to during his lifetime, the final task in his role of prophet-messenger. They all will return for this purpose.

Kirb Brimstone wrote: “Does Sura 61:14 not say, ‘O ye who believe! Be ye helpers of Allah: as said Jesus the son of Mary to the Disciples, ‘Who will be my helpers to (the work of) Allah?’ Said the Disciples, ‘We are Allah's helpers!’ then a portion of the Children of Israel believed, and a portion disbelieved: But We gave power to those who believed against their enemies, AND THEY BECAME THE ONES THAT PREVAILED.’”

The early believers did prevail in those very earliest days, with James the Just leading them from the First Church in Jerusalem. 600 years later, Islam picked up that baton to prevail anew.

Kirb Brimstone wrote: “Allah gave Christ’s followers the power to prevail over the disbelievers, and made them superior till the day of resurrection. Yet the ones that prevailed were the Apostles such as Paul, as well as his followers. This means that if the Quran is correct, then Paul’s message is the truth since it has become dominant and has prevailed over all other opposing messages.”

Nay. That means they were allowed to prevail for a time, until Paul’s falsehood was carried by Rome for the next five centuries. Then Islam came, under the banner of the final part of the message of revealed scripture, where it prevailed once again.

Muhammad Rasheed - Kirb Brimstone wrote: “Hey Moe do you read Arabic?”

red herring – (logical fallacy; informal) As an informal fallacy, the red herring falls into a broad class of relevance fallacies. Unlike the strawman, which is premised on a distortion of the other party's position, the red herring is a seemingly plausible, though ultimately irrelevant, diversionary tactic. According to the Oxford English Dictionary, a red herring may be intentional, or unintentional; it does not necessarily mean a conscious intent to mislead.

Kirb Brimstone wrote: “If so what do you think about Sura 3:54?”

It’s a direct reference of Allah saying that the enemies’ plots against His prophet did not prevail, and His Divine Planning reigned supreme. Jesus was not crucified. Perhaps you should’ve chosen a different day to ask me that question…? Considering. Timing.

Kirb Brimstone - Moe wrote, "Thanks. I knew that you would. I’ll have to dig into it later since you waited until 2am to finally respond."

Sorry it was mid day my time.

Moe wrote "I worship the One God of Abraham, the true in faith, who practiced uncompromising monotheism, and would never commit the sin of subscribing partners/sons to the One God. Between the two of us, Kirb, I do not court hell."

Moe that's the debate. I say you don't worship the One God of Abraham,

You're just question begging.

Not sure if you understand what the Christian believes. Jesus isn't partners with God. He is God. He is the second person of the Godhead. Not his partner. So by rejecting Jesus you reject the Father who according to Jesus are one. Thus you reject God and court hell.

But again that is what we are debating. So the question is did Jesus claim to be God? The answer is Yes. And there is good evidence to support this.

Moe wrote, "Nay. That means they were allowed to prevail for a time"

“I will make those who follow thee SUPERIOR to those who reject faith, TO THE DAY OF RESURRECTION"

The Quran says to the day of Resurrection not "for a time".

Paul was teach just months after Christ's Resurrection in accordance with the earliest church tradition. The fact is the High Christology (i.e. Jesus is Lord Jesus worshiped as God dates right back to the earliest church tradition.)

Moe wrote, God’s message hasn’t changed."

The Quran says,

"The companions of Jesus were indeed superior over those who plotted against him, just as the Lord said."

In what way?

Kirb Brimstone - The Quran, the Bible, and the Islamic Dilemma (AnsweringMuslims.com)

Moe "Paul and the New Testament are interchangeable terms. If you talk about the one you are talking about the other."

and

"In light of what was just revealed, do you think the Qur’an meant the false writings of Paul and his evangelical cronies when it said “Gospel,” or was it referencing the actual, verbal message of Jesus spoken to the people during his lifetime?"

No Christian or Historian believes Paul wrote the Gospels.

The historical facts are that what the Gospels that were around in Muhammad's day is the same Gospel we have today and the Quran says the Gospel is the word of God and you should follow it..

This leads to the Islamic Dilemma.

Kirb Brimstone - Question. Do you believe that Jesus was crucified?

Kirb Brimstone - Allah just couldn't protect the Gospel from big bad Paul and the all powerful Constantine? Wow.

The words of Allah have been corrupted according to Moe but the Quran says no one can corrupt the word of Allah!

Amen!

If the Quran is right the the Gospels of today cannot be corrupted. Which leads to the Quran being false because the Gospels contradict the Quran.

If the Gospel has been corrupted then the Quran is wrong becuase Allah's words can be corrupted.

Another Islamic Dilemma.

Not to mention the historical evidence supports the truth that the the Gospel we have today is the same one in Muhammad day and the Torrah we have today is the same as the Torrah in Jesus' day.

Muhammad Rasheed - Kirb Brimstone wrote: “Moe wrote 'I worship the One God of Abraham, the true in faith, who practiced uncompromising monotheism, and would never commit the sin of subscribing partners/sons to the One God. Between the two of us, Kirb, I do not court hell.' Moe that's the debate. I say you don't worship the One God of Abraham”

The final book in the message of revealed scripture from that very same One God of Abraham says otherwise. I think He trumps you, Kirb.

Kirb Brimstone wrote: “You're just question begging.”

Did you just accuse me of that after casually dismissing the work of a PhD Christian scholar?

Kirb Brimstone wrote: “Not sure if you understand what the Christian believes. Jesus isn't partners with God. He is God. He is the second person of the Godhead. Not his partner. So by rejecting Jesus you reject the Father who according to Jesus are one. Thus you reject God and court hell.”

Christians are all over the place in their believes on that. lol Some even direct their prayers to his mom. It doesn’t matter. In any event, stop worshiping Jesus. God hates that.

Kirb Brimstone wrote: “But again that is what we are debating. So the question is did Jesus claim to be God?”

The messenger of God would never do such a thing. And since the Qur’an holds Jesus in high esteem and confirms his prophethood, he certainly did not make such a claim.

Kirb Brimstone wrote: “The answer is Yes. And there is good evidence to support this.”

lol No, there isn’t.

Kirb Brimstone wrote: “Moe wrote, ‘Nay. That means they were allowed to prevail for a time’
‘I will make those who follow thee SUPERIOR to those who reject faith, TO THE DAY OF RESURRECTION’ The Quran says to the day of Resurrection not ‘for a time.’”

You’re right. That means He was talking about Jesus’ twelve companions specifically and not the body of early Christians.

Kirb Brimstone wrote: “Paul was teach just months after Christ's Resurrection in accordance with the earliest church tradition. The fact is the High Christology (i.e. Jesus is Lord Jesus worshiped as God dates right back to the earliest church tradition.)”

Irrelevant considering it wasn’t taught by the Christ himself, nor by his hand-picked heir. Only those who had strayed far from the Christ’s message worshiped him as divine.

Kirb Brimstone wrote: “Moe wrote, God’s message hasn’t changed. The Quran says, ‘The companions of Jesus were indeed superior over those who plotted against him, just as the Lord said.’ In what way?”

They were righteous believers in god who followed His messenger, while does who plotted against them were not.

Muhammad Rasheed - Kirb Brimstone wrote: “No Christian or Historian believes Paul wrote the Gospels.”

The PhD Christian scholar I sourced above, professor at Cambridge University, admits that the bulk of the NT was either written by Paul, or written by Pauline-inspired evangelicals later. This is accepted Christian scholarship in the field. Only the non-scholar true believers in the pews believe the four gospels were writ by the men whose names they bear.

Kirb Brimstone wrote: “The historical facts are that what the Gospels that were around in Muhammad's day is the same Gospel we have today.”

This is true. Unfortunately none of them are what the true believers such as yourself believe them to be. They are not the message of God.

Kirb Brimstone wrote: “This leads to the Islamic Dilemma.”

lol Islam doesn’t have the dilemma. It’s those worshiping the messenger of God as a divine entity that have the dilemma.

Kirb Brimstone wrote: “Question. Do you believe that Jesus was crucified?”

Why would I believe that when the final message of revealed scripture confirms he was not crucified? Why would it make sense that I would believe that?

Kirb Brimstone - Moe: "‘I will make those who follow thee SUPERIOR to those who reject faith, TO THE DAY OF RESURRECTION’ The Quran says to the day of Resurrection not ‘for a time.’”

You’re right. That means He was talking about Jesus’ twelve companions specifically and not the body of early Christians."

Then you contradict the Quran when you say Paul corrupted the Gospel. Allah promised Jesus that his followers would be victorious TILL THE DAY OF RESURRECTION. Has the day of Resurrection come? No!

So Allah couldn't keep his promise because as you claim the Paul was victorious over the twelve companions.

Moe: "“Paul was teach just months after Christ's Resurrection in accordance with the earliest church tradition. The fact is the High Christology (i.e. Jesus is Lord Jesus worshiped as God dates right back to the earliest church tradition.)”

Irrelevant considering it wasn’t taught by the Christ himself, nor by his hand-picked heir."
---
That isn't what historical evidence reflects. Let me ask you when did the Gospels get corrupted Moe? Before Muhammad or after?

Moe: "The final book in the message of revealed scripture from that very same One God of Abraham says otherwise. I think He trumps you, Kirb."

But that is what we are debating Moe. Is the Quran the final book of God? No. No it is not.

Moe: "Christians are all over the place in their believes on that. lol Some even direct their prayers to his mom. It doesn’t matter. In any event, stop worshiping Jesus. God hates that. "

Again this shows your ignorance of Christianity Moe. Maybe you've never spoke to a studied Christian so let me please at least clerify what Christian Orthodoxy is. The central doctrine of Christianity is that Jesus is God. Christian's believe that God is triune Three persons in one God. So When Jesus speaks of the Father he is talking about the first person of the trinity. When we talk about the Holy Spirit we are talking about the Third person of the trinity. The father isn't Yahweh and Jesus is his son. No The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit is Yahweh.

That is mere Christianity.

Any group that doesn't conform to that isn't considered Christian. That's why Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses are not Christian.

As for praying to Mary. That is a Catholic tradition. Not strictly taught but but condemned. It is condemned by all the Protestant denominations. Either way no Christian denomination teaches Mary is God even if they allow prayer to Mary or Saints.

I will continue to worship God. Which includes the Son the eternal Godman Jesus the Christ. As Jesus said "Before Abraham I AM! and "THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN" which lead the Jewish High Priest to charge Jesus as Blaspheme which lead to his crucifixion.

Due as your Quran commands and go to the Gospel. Obey the Gospel that Allah says can not be changed.

Kirb Brimstone - Moe: "The PhD Christian scholar I sourced above, professor at Cambridge University, admits that the bulk of the NT was either written by Paul, or written by Pauline-inspired evangelicals later. This is accepted Christian scholarship in the field."

Absolutely not Moe. The majority of Scholars believe that the Gospels were written by the names it was attributed to. Two of which were Disciples of Jesus John and Mathew.and another was Mark a student of Peter (another Disciple) In all my studies I've never heard Paul wrote the Gospels. lol. Paul wrote the his letters not the Gospels.

What is the name of this so-called Christian Scholar Moe?

Kirb Brimstone - Moe:"Why would I believe that when the final message of revealed scripture confirms he was not crucified?"

So if Jesus wasn't crucified and Allah merely made it appear that it was so (Surah 4:157-158) then why didn't he tell his disciples that? As I mentioned the early 1st century Christians (including the Disciples) proclaimed a risen Christ! Why didn't Jesus correct the 1st Century Jews in Jerusalem who were going around saying he was raised from the dead?

Did Allah not tell Jesus to clarify what happened? If he did
then Jesus the Messiah is incompetent and should never have been sent by God.

Or if Allah didn't tell Jesus or clarify with the Disciples then Allah is responsible for the greatest deception that lead a great many to believe that Jesus rose from the dead which lead to Christianity which lead to a multitude of people all around the world committing shirk and thus going to the worst hell!!!

You've got a deceptive God or an Incompetent Messiah.

Not to mention that the crucifixion of Jesus is the concidered the greatest historical fact about Jesus.

Muhammad Rasheed - Kirb Brimstone wrote: “Then you contradict the Quran when you say Paul corrupted the Gospel.”

Paul was not one of the twelve. He was not in that group. He never met Jesus. Why are you unaware of this?

Kirb Brimstone wrote: “Allah promised Jesus that his followers would be victorious TILL THE DAY OF RESURRECTION. Has the day of Resurrection come? No!”

It is clear that He was only referring to the twelve.

Kirb Brimstone wrote: “So Allah couldn't keep his promise because as you claim the Paul was victorious over the twelve companions.”

Strawman.

Kirb Brimstone wrote: “Moe: ‘Irrelevant considering it wasn’t taught by the Christ himself, nor by his hand-picked heir.’ That isn't what historical evidence reflects.”

PhD scholar experts like the one mentioned above, say otherwise. They clearly trump your knowledge and understanding.

Kirb Brimstone wrote: “Let me ask you when did the Gospels get corrupted Moe? Before Muhammad or after?”

The entire NT represents the full corruption. When Paul’s message was held up as canon by Rome over the message as taught by James was the point of the corruption.

Kirb Brimstone wrote: “But that is what we are debating Moe. Is the Quran the final book of God? No. No it is not.”

Of course it is.

Kirb Brimstone wrote: “Again this shows your ignorance of Christianity Moe.”

Do you deny that there are Christians that worship Mary? Do you deny that there are Christians that emphasize the ‘divine sonship’ doctrine?

Kirb Brimstone wrote: “Maybe you've never spoke to a studied Christian…”

I can honestly say I never have. I read a lot of their books though.

Kirb Brimstone wrote: “…so let me please at least clerify what Christian Orthodoxy is […] blah, blah, blah”

Didn’t I tell you I wasn’t interested in Paul’s drivel? The intricate details of how you all decide to be all over the place in your blasphemy is irrelevant. Stop worshiping Jesus.

Kirb Brimstone wrote: “That is mere Christianity. Any group that doesn't conform to that isn't considered Christian.”

Isn’t considered it by whom? Christian Central High Command of Christiandom (CCHCC)?

Kirb Brimstone wrote: “That's why Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses are not Christian.”

They say they are. And don’t they worship the Christ? Why should I take your word as an expert of theirs? Don’t bother to answer that, please.

Kirb Brimstone wrote: “As for praying to Mary. That is a Catholic tradition.”

Catholics are pauline Christians.

Kirb Brimstone wrote: “Not strictly taught but but condemned. It is condemned by all the Protestant denominations.”

So?

Kirb Brimstone wrote: “Either way no Christian denomination teaches Mary is God even if they allow prayer to Mary or Saints.”

They do it enough for outsiders to notice it, and in fact, caused the One God to free her from the blasphemies said about her in the Book. It’s clearly a big deal.

Kirb Brimstone wrote: “I will continue to worship God.”

Please do so. And stop worshiping God’s messenger.

Kirb Brimstone wrote: “Which includes the Son the eternal Godman Jesus the Christ.”

What did I JUST say?

Kirb Brimstone wrote: “As Jesus said "Before Abraham I AM! and "THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN" which lead the Jewish High Priest to charge Jesus as Blaspheme which lead to his crucifixion.”

All of this reflects the fictions invented by the Pauline-inspired evangelicals. You may safely discard it as false doctrine, repent of worshiping the messenger, and bow down to the One God of Abraham that your soul may prosper for real.

Kirb Brimstone wrote: “Due as your Quran commands and go to the Gospel. Obey the Gospel that Allah says can not be changed.”

What did He tell me to go to the Gospels for exactly?

Muhammad Rasheed - Kirb Brimstone wrote: "What is the name of this so-called Christian Scholar Moe?"

Just follow the link I posted above. Easy.

Kirb Brimstone - Moe: "Kirb Brimstone wrote:The historical facts are that what the Gospels that were around in Muhammad's day is the same Gospel we have today.”

This is true. Unfortunately none of them are what the true believers such as yourself believe them to be. They are not the message of God."

The Christian of the Muhammad day didn't have the Gospel? That's not what the Quran says.

"Surah 10:94-95 "And if thou (Muhammad) art in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto thee, then question those who read the Scripture (that was) before thee. Verily the Truth from thy Lord hath come unto thee. So be not thou of the waverers. And be not thou of those who deny the revelations of Allah, for then wert thou of the losers."

Allah is telling Muhammad that when he is in doubt he should go to those who had the scriptures that was before(Torrah and the Gospel). Well did Allah tell Muhammad to read corrupted books or where the books not corrupted?

Kirb Brimstone - Okay Moe it's late I'm going to bed. I'll pick this up when next I have some free time. Good chatting with you.

Kirb Brimstone - I'm going to research the link you posted but I'll leave with this

"Perhaps the most signficant discovery about Paul in this century's scholarship has been the recognition of his Christian precedents. Paul cannot be called the 'second founder of Christianity,' as Wrede named him less than seventy years ago. Christianity in the 'Pauline' form -- with sacraments, cultic worship of Jesus as Lord, Gentile members, and the doctrines of pre-existence and atoning death of the Christ -- had already been 'founded' before Paul became first its persecutor and then its missionary."

Taken from Meeks' article "The Christian Proteus" in the book THE WRITINGS OF ST PAUL, (New York: W. W. Norton & Company, 1972), p. 440.

Muhammad Rasheed - Kirb Brimstone wrote: “Allah is telling Muhammad that when he is in doubt he should go to those who had the scriptures that was before(Torrah and the Gospel). Well did Allah tell Muhammad to read corrupted books or where the books not corrupted?”

It says if he was in doubt that what God revealed to him was true, then ask those who read the previous scriptures who will recognize the revelation as truth. The very first time he received the very first verses, he was stunned and afraid, and his wife’s Christian cousin confirmed that he was the messenger of God. Obviously the “divine Jesus” book of the Pauline Christians is a corruption of the message, but there is enough authenticity there for both Muslims and Christians to be considered “followers of Abraham” using objective scholarship. Khadijah’s learned cousin recognized the ‘Comforter’ prophesized by the Christ by the signs.

Kirb Brimstone quoted: “Perhaps the most signficant discovery about Paul in this century's scholarship has been the recognition of his Christian precedents. Paul cannot be called the 'second founder of Christianity,' as Wrede named him less than seventy years ago. Christianity in the 'Pauline' form -- with sacraments, cultic worship of Jesus as Lord, Gentile members, and the doctrines of pre-existence and atoning death of the Christ -- had already been 'founded' before Paul became first its persecutor and then its missionary." 

Kirb, I expect that kind of talk from the true believers in the doctrine. Like you, they read into it leaning in the direction of their beloved doctrine. You’re not going to move me by quoting uncritical true believers, who confine all of their scholarship safely inside of the doctrine itself.

Muhammad Rasheed - Kirb Brimstone wrote: "Okay Moe it's late I'm going to bed. I'll pick this up when next I have some free time. Good chatting with you."

Okay. Talk to you later. Be good.

Muhammad Rasheed - Kirb Brimstone wrote: “Allah just couldn't protect the Gospel from big bad Paul and the all powerful Constantine? Wow. The words of Allah have been corrupted according to Moe but the Quran says no one can corrupt the word of Allah! Amen!”

I don’t get it. The Gospel was the revealed message of God that was given to Jesus to preach to the people. The message was continued – confirmed & fulfilled in the usual scriptural tradition – five centuries later when the next and final prophet-messenger was anointed to received the revealed scripture. The message is uncorrupted and available to lead you onto the Right Way of God. Ameen.

Kirb Brimstone wrote: “If the Quran is right the the Gospels of today cannot be corrupted. Which leads to the Quran being false because the Gospels contradict the Quran.”

The four gospels you are referring to were never the revealed scripture of God. They are the writings of Paul and the speeches of Pauline evangelicals (w/some filler added) that are based on the scripture revealed to Jesus in some ways.

Kirb Brimstone wrote: “If the Gospel has been corrupted then the Quran is wrong becuase Allah's words can be corrupted.”

Strawman.

Kirb Brimstone wrote: “Another Islamic Dilemma.”
That’s only a dilemma if you believe Paul is who the Christians believe him to be.

Kirb Brimstone wrote: “Not to mention the historical evidence supports the truth that the the Gospel we have today is the same one in Muhammad day and the Torrah we have today is the same as the Torrah in Jesus' day.”

The learned Christians of Muhammad’s day – despite their worship of their own prophet as a divine entity – still recognized Muhammad as “that prophet” who Jesus prophesized would come after him. The “dilemma” is only on your end, and has been all along, thus the reason for the numerous retcons you all have done since our epic religious debates began over fifteen hundred years ago. It is very telling to me that in those days the Christian community was waiting for “that prophet,” and once Muhammad showed up, you changed the community speak, and the translations now say that it wasn’t a prophet after-all he was prophesizing, he was talking about the holy spirit. That’s lame. lol Who were you supposed to be fooling? Obviously yourselves.


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