Tuesday, January 6, 2015

The Boring Spectacle of Demonstrated Skill in Techniques


Muhammad Rasheed[shared link] They call Floyd boring because he almost never plants his feet and actively tries to go for the KO unless he knows for SURE his opponent has nothing for him. Otherwise he's extremely protective of that "0."

In my opinion, as a Floyd fan myself, I am also protective of that "0" which makes my stress level go up when he does take even a glancing shot, especially now that he's older (both Floyd and Manny are past their primes btw, so I don't understand why Roy's opinion here is so lopsided in that regard).



Jerry Lee Brice - LOL!...I assumed Floyd and Roy are friends of each other, or at least fans!LOl...but Roy does not sound very impressed, but, well, I was a hardcore Roy fan and before he got knocked out, he was good for fighting tomato cans.

Muhammad Rasheed - I'm not sure about calling them "tomato cans." lol He was fighting the mandatory contenders, so even though they weren't big names that casual fans would recognize, they were definitely skilled solid boxers of good talent.

Brett Barton - The whole problem is that Floyd can pick and choose what he does.

One the business side it's genius on the other side it does merit some criticism.

Muhammad Rasheed - It's hard to take that kind of criticism seriously when champions MUST fight certain people in order to keep the titles. We've seen people get stripped of titles for refusing to fight people before, so it's not like we don't know what it actually looks like when it really does happen. Unfounded criticism is nonsense.

Brett Barton - Floyd breaks all the boxing norms from management etc. Choosing who, when, or how much $ is pretty much up to him. I wouldn't say it's unfounded from guys who did things differently in the game

Muhammad Rasheed - Choosing when is still limited when he's contractually obligated to fight within a certain time frame in order to keep the titles. Every champion has a certain amount of leeway inside of that time period. To suddenly shine the spotlight on that when Floyd does it just because it's Floyd is "Meh."

Yes, he gets to choose how much because he wears the business hat unlike the majority of other boxers in history. Hopefully this begins a permanent new trend. I'm all about the "creators" in any field shifting that particular power dynamic.

Choosing who is no different for Floyd than it is for any other fighter. He certainly would not be allowed to only fight "tomato cans" and duck all the top contenders and keep his belts at the same time.

Jerry Lee Brice - ...but fighters that he knew were not up to his skill level, and ones that he would puck and choose..and duck, based on how he matched up against them.

Muhammad Rasheed - Fighting people that are mandatory contenders that he knew were not at his skill level. Fighting people that the fans wanted to see him fight that he knew were not at his skill level.

Is that a real criticism? 

And who did he "duck?"

Muhammad Rasheed - Did he "duck" them because the fight fans that don't like him say that he ducked them, or because he actually ducked them?

Jerry Lee Brice - It's a convenient excuse.
I remember Larry Holmes throwing one of his belts in the trash as a symbolic gesture of his lack of caring about a mandatory competitor versus fighting a big name dangerous challenger, which the fighter in him would not allow him to back down from for any reason.
>>>I guess the old ways are not practiced in these days of prizefighting.

Muhammad Rasheed - Jerry Lee Brice wrote: "It's a convenient excuse. I remember Larry Holmes throwing one of his belts in the trash as a symbolic gesture of his lack of caring about a mandatory competitor versus fighting a big name dangerous challenger, which the fighter in him would not allow him to back down from for any reason."

That's one way of putting it. Another way is that he preferred to fight the guy that would net him a $3 million payout over the mandatory challenger that would only get him $2 million +. The WBC refused to sanction the fight that would've paid him more, so he symbolically demonstrated his loyalty for the money over the belt.

Jerry Lee Brice - M.O.B....Money Over Belts!

Muhammad Rasheed - ...especially since he'd already been reigning as champion for a million years.

Jerry Lee Brice - ..back in the 70's, a fighter would call out a champ like Ali, and three or four months later, they would be in the ring scrapping..that's where a lot of these fighters are coming from, because they are old enough to remember those times, even if they were little kids watching on TV...there was never any multi-year drama over making one prize fight.

Muhammad Rasheed - They were also broke as hell. lol

Jerry Lee Brice - Ali is still paid, so is Holmes...Frazier had money, heard he lost it later in life on bad investments...but Marciano, Moore, and many other a lister boxers back then, were well paid based on the time.

Muhammad Rasheed - Going through all of that drama, only to leave the game injured and broke isn't a bragging point to me.

Floyd is doing it correctly, and he's fought the top talent. All he has left to do is close the deal with Manny and his legacy is secured.

Jerry Lee Brice - ..so, angry and broke???..don't know who yu are talking about..but Ali, Frazier, Holmes, Marciano, Moore...etc.were paid, and stayed paid.
Mr. Robinson, and Joe LOuis lost their dough due to taxes and bad business moves OUTSIDE the ring..but they were well paid fighters.Them being broke had nothing to do with their fight purses.

Muhammad Rasheed - Ali lost his fortune, and Lonnie hired a finance team to help him recapture it through speaking gigs until his Parkinson's made that impossible.

Holmes was always a superb businessman, with the majority of his fortune actually in real estate. 

The mob made sure Marciano was okay, and no one would dare touch him. What his books actually looked like is anyone's guess.

Jerry Lee Brice - He, and none of them lost their money in the ring, they lost it OUTSIDE of the ring.
De le Hoya and his group seem to still be caked up.

Muhammad Rasheed - Jerry Lee Brice wrote: "He, and none of them lost their money in the ring, they lost it OUTSIDE of the ringt."

That's a strawman argument. However way they lost it, they lost it. They weren't smart with money, were poor in negotiation skills, and it was boxing tradition. There were a few exceptions, but the broke boxer archetype was the norm.

Jerry Lee Brice - No...their busines inside of the ring was tight, they lost their money due to bad investments outside of the ring..and they fought each other speedily, unless they were afraid of the challenge, and back in the day, they would rather risk being knocked out in the ring, than be seen as a guy ducking running and reaching for any old excuse or rationale to not fight any challenger.

Jerry Lee Brice - George Foreman once fought like 6 fighters back to back one night on TV!LOl...

Muhammad Rasheed - Jerry Lee Brice wrote: "No...their busines inside of the ring was tight..."

Psh. They let other people dictate their business inside of the ring and took what was decided for them.

Jerry Lee Brice wrote: "...they lost their money due to bad investments outside of the ring.."

And that's what happened to the little bit of money they did earn, compared to the mega-profits generated by the events. They received a small percentage on their sweat & blood, and wasted it soon after. That is the norm in boxing.

Jerry Lee Brice wrote: "...and they fought each other speedily..."

They had to in order to support the fast money, big spender lifestyles they were living. 

Jerry Lee Brice wrote: "...unless they were afraid of the challenge, and back in the day, they would rather risk being knocked out in the ring, than be seen as a guy ducking running and reaching for any old excuse or rationale to not fight any challenger."

They had no choice who they fought or when. When they did duck, it manifested itself as quitting the biz altogether, so the fans didn't recognize it as "ducking." The only champions that we know that actually ducked had their titles stripped because of the strict anti-ducking rules that are actually in place.

Jerry Lee Brice - I'm missing your point here, if we are actually still talking about fighting in the ring.I mean, I do business based on the hard lessons of artist that came before me..so that's logical for a thinking person,..but as far as what I do with my pencil and paper, that has NOTHING to do with how i choose to spend party or throw my money away after making it with that pencil and paper...so, I guess i am missing your point if it has to do with fighting.

Muhammad Rasheed - Basically it comes back to a disagreement as to whether Floyd is playing the game well compared to boxers of old. I disagree with your "they were well paid for the time" comment, and consider those guys as typical talent that had been taken advantage of by a predatory industry. 

I also disagree with the "ducking" myth. Boxing has very strict rules for champions when it comes to who they had better fight, and the list of fighters that Floyd has faced are certainly not "tomato cans." It's impossible to take those comments seriously.

Jerry Lee Brice - Oh, Ok, whatever!LOL..we will just have to adamantly disagree on this topic, no problem.

Muhammad Rasheed - lol I know, I was expecting you to show up wearing your Manny t-shirt.

Muhammad Rasheed - Soon as I posted it I was like, "Watch Jerry come in here shouting 'Tell 'em, Roy!!'"

Muhammad Rasheed - lol

Jerry Lee Brice - LOL!..well, Roy has been known to be a boxer.

Muhammad Rasheed - Roy has a history of dancing in the ring. Naturally he has very strong opinions as to who would be 'boring' or not. 

Obviously you were tuning in for the dancing. hahahaha

Jerry Lee Brice - Naw...actually I liked his rooster punches from behind his back.He knocked one dude out cold with a punch like that on the top of the head!LOL..the Knocked out dude may have been paying too much attention to the dancing.
I like to see fights.

Jerry Lee Brice - ..but you know, as far as betting on fights is concerned, when Tarver knocked him out cold, he also knocked a lot of money cold out of my pockets!LOL...when betting goes bad.

Muhammad Rasheed - Roy is one of my favorites, but he cared about the 'entertainment' factor far more than Floyd, who only cares about the win. He's only going to go for the KO if he's sure there is no risk. Naturally that's not the most exciting spectacle for those at ringside, but that's never been the part I cared about as a fight fan. I like to see the demonstration of boxing as a functional martial art, so the win is the most important part for me, too.

Winky Wright was also like that; he cared more about the win, and his defensive style made people not want to fight him because it made them look bad.

Jerry Lee Brice - Okay, i get that..I generally watch MMA boughts for that level of competition and skill, ..very technical stuff...but as far as boxing is concerned, I tend to like fights like Hagler-Hearns!LOl...

Muhammad Rasheed - Yeah, I would never list that one as one of my favs. Watching Hearns let all of his form go out the window like that always pisses me off. (clubbing punches??? really, tommy???)

Muhammad Rasheed - Ugh.

Muhammad Rasheed - Speaking of MMA, at it's current level of development, the average fighter has poor technique with their hands during stand-up, and that's why many fans will groan when it goes to the ground and DOES get more technical. The fans rarely appreciate technique over wild, laying-it-on-the-line abandon.

Muhammad Rasheed - That's the part that makes it "exciting."

Muhammad Rasheed - I genuinely prefer the technique, and demonstrated mastery of skill, and will always root for the boxer-technician over the puncher-brawler any day.

Jerry Lee Brice - LOl!..i just want to see one fool get knocked out.

Muhammad Rasheed - hahahaha

Muhammad Rasheed - See, you can just watch those damn homeless wino brawls on YouTube for that, Jer. lol

Jerry Lee Brice - LOL!...

Muhammad Rasheed - That's why they created that 'Toughman Competition' show back in the day. No skill, just gloves flyin' everywhere...

Muhammad Rasheed - I can't watch that shit.

Jerry Lee Brice - LOl!..I hear you man.Actually, I hate that stuff as well, no skills.I like professional boxers who have skill on delivering those blows, knowing that leaves them open to take one!LOL..that's a tough decision to make,and when one does not do that, i know he's not about that life.
So...he holds on to the belt for years, but, entertains none.

Muhammad Rasheed - To me it's a matter of the thinking martial artist versus the dumb jock.

Muhammad Rasheed - Talent comes in more areas than just the physical gifts.

Jerry Lee Brice - Boxers ARE dumb jocks!LOL, that's what got the sport to be popular...if folks fought like Floyd in the 50's, t60'70's etc?!?!?...we would not be here talking, hyping and anticipating ANY bought, but, we are, due to the pugilist of the past.
Face it folks will PAY to see if Floyd will fight, hoping that when and if he does, he will get knocked out, OR knock somebody out.

Jerry Lee Brice - Fans like those video game knockouts!LOL..they would not buy an interactive fight game if all you got was Floyd style bouts...that's what they give you the super SMASH option when you fight in video games.
My point here is that is what the fans want.

Muhammad Rasheed - Jerry Lee Brice wrote: "Boxers ARE dumb jocks!LOL, that's what got the sport to be popular...if folks fought like Floyd in the 50's, t60'70's etc?!?!?...we would not be here talking, hyping and anticipating ANY bought, but, we are, due to the pugilist of the past. "

Many are. A few aren't. Floyd isn't. He's a thinking fighter, despite the illiteracy controversy. Muhammad Ali wasn't a dumb jock either. And certainly Bonecrusher Smith wasn't; he was a "gentleman boxer," as they call them.

Boxers of the past had no choice as to how they played the game. They were "handled" like those music acts are handled by executives that dictate ALL the terms.

Jerry Lee Brice - All the fans are doing is reacting to what they see in the ring, NOT what some boxer does at a negotiation table.

Muhammad Rasheed - Jerry Lee Brice wrote: "My point here is that is what the fans want."

I know. Those are the folks that are spending all of that money on tickets, not the fans like me. I get it. Roy would've been wasting his time if he thought that dancing was getting MY attention. lol I just like the boxing technique part, and if the boxer happens to be heavy-handed, too, then that's just gravy.

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