Saturday, November 15, 2014

McCarthy's War

Andre Owens - [shared link] How long before some wingnut defends Hoover in this?

“There is but one way out for you”: Read the uncensored letter J. Edgar Hoover wrote to MLK

Russell Farmarco - Doesn't everyone hate Hoover at this point?

Andre Owens - @Russell, you'd think. But remember, there are folks out there in the conservative mainstream who still think McCarthy was right.

Andre Owens - Combine this stuff with the recent release of the HR Haldeman tapes and you get a pretty clear picture of just how racist the US Government was under Hoover and Nixon.

Andre Owens - And Hoover can't be that hated. His name still adorns the FBI building, but then again we have stuff named after that racist Ronald Reagan. So go figure.

Russell Farmarco - Put it this way, no one may be so motivated to remove his name from a building, but I don't think he has many fans.

Muhammad Rasheed - Andre Owens wrote: "But remember, there are folks out there in the conservative mainstream who still think McCarthy was right."

Right about what exactly?

Andre Owens - They think he was right that the US government was deeply infiltrated by Communists.

Trey Noë - That's not true...they believe the US Government IS deeply infiltrated...but I do not think I will accept your judgment for what qualifies as "conservative mainstream" since I am certain you believe that to be an oxy-moron. ;)

Muhammad Rasheed - Andre Owens wrote: "They think he was right that the US government was deeply infiltrated by Communists."

And you think he was wrong? If so, why?

Andre Owens - Uh, because Dwight Eisenhower wasn't a communist like McCarthy claimed. Thats one example.

Andre Owens - @Trey, huh?

Andre Owens - Are you saying the conservatives today still think the government is occupied by communists? That would sure be a surprise to this Marxist.

Russell Farmarco - The thing about McCarthy, some of those guys were probably communists, as many of the Hollywood folk were, but in a supposed land of the free, there should be no actual crime in that.

Muhammad Rasheed - Andre Owens wrote: "Uh, because Dwight Eisenhower wasn't a communist like McCarthy claimed. Thats one example."

1.) Where did McCarthy claim it?

2.) How do you know Eisenhower wasn't?

Andre Owens - Well Mo, I'm not going to do the research for you. You can easily google comments from McCarthy.  And I know Eisenhower wasn't a communist because he wasn't. So if I claim you're a pedophile, and you say you're not and there's no evidence to support my claim, someone else can come along and say, "How do you know Mo is not a child molester?"

Andre Owens - And to get back to Russell's comment. What is wrong with being a Communist anyway?

Muhammad Rasheed - Andre Owens wrote: "Well Mo, I'm not going to do the research for you. You can easily google comments from McCarthy. And I know Eisenhower wasn't a communist because he wasn't. So if I claim you're a pedophile, and you say you're not and there's no evidence to support my claim, someone else can come along and say, 'How do you know Mo is not a child molester?'"

TRANSLATION:

1.) "I dunno. I just heard it somewhere. It's fashionable to vilify McCarthy just because. I don't really know the story behind the McCarthy thing, I'm just on the bandwagon because I'm supposed to be. I think."

2.) "He wasn't because he wasn't! Geez, do I have to think for you? Of course there's no evidence that he actually wasn't, just accept it based on the blind faith of non-religion."

Muhammad Rasheed - Andre Owens wrote: "And to get back to Russell's comment. What is wrong with being a Communist anyway?"

lol Are you actually directing this towards me after rudely ducking my questions? Really?

Muhammad Rasheed - Why don't you ask Google why Communism is so shitty?

Andre Owens - I actually have an undergrad degree in History, so I'm not like you and just basing my beliefs on faith. If you want to go around supporting Joe McCarthy, be my guest. If reflects on your values more than me jumping on a bandwagon. I didn't duck your questions, I"m just not playing your games.

Andre Owens - And why dont you ask google why Muslims are so violent?

Russell Farmarco - It's not a matter of whether Communism is shitty, I agree it is, but it should not be illegal to be one.

Andre Owens - Communism is not more shitty than Capitalism. Read Das Kapital to see an excellent critique of capitalism.

Muhammad Rasheed - Andre Owens wrote: "I actually have an undergrad degree in History, so I'm not like you and just basing my beliefs on Faith."

Sure you are. That's why you don't want to answer a point blank question in favor of flaunting this history degree. Am I seriously supposed to believe that you wouldn't simply say the answer if you knew it?            

Andre Owens wrote: "If you want to go around supporting Joe McCarthy, be my guest. If reflects on your values more than me jumping on a bandwagon."

I merely asked you a question to support the reasons behind your anti-McCarthy ideology. It's VERY telling that you didn't have one, but got defensive instead. Attempting to misdirect from the topic is also very telling.                      

Andre Owens wrote: "I didn't duck your questions, I"m just not playing your games."

No. You didn't have an answer, and decided to pretend I was playing games in a weak effort to save face. If you didn't want to talk about it, all you had to say was you didn't want to talk about it because your history classes never dug into that.

Muhammad Rasheed - Easy.

Muhammad Rasheed - Andre Owens wrote: "Communism is not more shitty than Capitalism."

Sure it is. The individual is the foundation of society, and any system that supports the state over the individual is fundamentally shitty. The individual comes first, and THEN the collective.  Trickle-down bullshit doesn't work in ANY system.

Andre Owens - Whatever man. Like I said, you can easily google comments from Joe McCarthy. I'm not the one who is supporting an historically reviled figure. And maybe you should open a book and read the history of the McCarthy era.

Muhammad Rasheed - Andre Owens wrote: "Whatever man."

That right there sums up your history degree. You should've led with that.

Andre Owens - Ahh yes, I can see you're a brainwashed Ameican who believes in the myth of the hyper individual overcoming all odds by sheer force of his personality with no help from the collective.

Muhammad Rasheed - I can see you're a brainwashed American with a blind faith that capitalism is evil, and McCarthy was wrong.

Andre Owens - Have you read Das Kapital and the critique of Capitalism?

Muhammad Rasheed - No. I don't need someone to spoon feed me what to think. That if my undergrad history teachers didn't tell me about it, then I don't know it.

Trey Noë - I am skeptical of the value in believing whole heartedly in any institution whether it be public or private as both are comprised of humans who are flawed...and I say that add a self described human. Perhaps we end up believing more in the institution that we feel had given us more and then get persuaded to protect the institution...there's an axiom, like all beings with self preservation in mind "the institution protects the institution"

Russell Farmarco - FWIW, I actually can't find anything online where McCarthy called Eisenhower a commie or even insinuated it, just that Ike took the approach of ignoring him altogether (unlike Truman) and this seemed to take some wind out of his sails along with McCarhty's TV appearances where the American public found him to be an unlikable bully. The idea that Eisenhower may have been a communist is absurd though as he was the President of the philosophy's greatest foe and presiding over a war against it.

Andre Owens - So now reading is being "spoon fed what to think." Wow, just wow. You're a piece of work Muhammad.

Muhammad Rasheed - I asked you a normal question, and YOU got defensive & snippy, but I'M the "piece of work?"

Muhammad Rasheed - Okay.

Muhammad Rasheed - I guess that's just how Marxist-atheists roll then...

Russell Farmarco - Plenty of problems with capitalism, but wherever Communism takes hold the death count usually soars. It was by far the leader in state sponsored death in the 20th century.

Russell Farmarco - 20th Century Death

Muhammad Rasheed - Russell Farmarco wrote: "Plenty of problems with capitalism, but wherever Communism takes hold the death count usually soars. It was by far the leader in state sponsored death in the 20th century."            

Marxist-atheists are apparently ALLL about soaring death counts since they keep going on and on about the "joy" of Communism.

Muhammad Rasheed - They LOVE it.

Andre Owens - So? And Capitalism is by far the leader in the slave trade, the wiping out of the native populations of America, Australia and anywhere else its raised its head, and hyper colonialism.

Muhammad Rasheed - Did you say "So?" So to soaring death counts under your precious, precious Communism?

Gosh.

Muhammad Rasheed - Show me, Red Skew, how "wiping out a population" is related to capitalism.

Andre Owens - The "So" was directed at Russ for saying that Communism was by far the leader in state sponsored death.

Muhammad Rasheed - As a capitalist through my cartooning business, show me where I'm fucking up by not wiping out whole populations of people so I can get my game up.

Muhammad Rasheed - Andre Owens wrote: "The 'So' was directed at Russ for saying that Communism was by far the leader in state sponsored death."

I KNOW! hahahaha That's why you sound crazy!

Muhammad Rasheed - hahahahahaha

Russell Farmarco - That's certainly the bad side of Capitalism, and more then worthy of critique. But I still think it's a lesser of evils and it benefits more people than Communism. Certainly kills less people overall. 94 million in the most recently completed century dwarfs US's war count and all of facism combined warrants more than a "So?" but it appears we differ on that.

Andre Owens - You know nothing of history Mo if you can't see the greed of capitalism led to the wiping out of the natives for their land and enslaved the African population. Or was Slavery actually a communist plot?

Russell Farmarco - Communism didn't exist then.

Andre Owens - Exactly Russ!

Russell Farmarco - So since it's started it's been a larger disaster.

Russell Farmarco - Here's the fundamental irony that I think proves a regulated capitalism to to communism. Almost no one in capitalist countries moves to communist ones even though they are allowed to by their capitalist government but LOTS of people defect from communist countries to move to capitalist ones though they are forbidden under penalty of their home communist country to do so.

Muhammad Rasheed - Here's the problem: Capitalism isn't an ethic. Or a moral value. The individual humans that take part in capitalism BRING their ethics, morals, creeds, etc. with them when they do it.

Again: What does "wiping out a population" have to do with capitalism?  

I'M a capitalist. So is the Mom & Pop restaurant down the street. Is "wiping out a population" an inevitable consequence of selling cartoon books and chicken dinners to the populace in a Free Market?  

Explain. Preferably with actual facts and not huffs & tizzies, and whatever else you keep demonstrating.

Andre Owens - Well, maybe you guys can forgive capitalism for its sins but I can't. Without the overreach of Capitalism there never would have been a Communist revolution.  Communism is a reaction to the excesses of Capitalism. Read some history.

Muhammad Rasheed - ^huff & tizzy

Andre Owens - Mo, you dont deal in facts. I told you point blank that Eisenwoher wasn't a communist and your answer was "prove it."

Muhammad Rasheed - So what does flaunting a degree in someone's face mean in your world, Red Skew?

Muhammad Rasheed - lol

Muhammad Rasheed - Andre Owens wrote: "Mo, you dont deal in facts. I told you point blank that Eisenwoher wasn't a communist and your answer was 'prove it.'"

WOW.

Muhammad Rasheed - Did they teach you what "prove it" means in your undergrad...? It means: "show me the facts that support your claim." 

Muhammad Rasheed - You took "prove it" as a kind of magic curse or something? Very odd.

Muhammad Rasheed - Andre Owens wrote: "Well, maybe you guys can forgive capitalism for its sins but I can't."

The individual people who run the businesses decide whether to overreach or do morally wrong actions against other people. That literally has NOTHING to do with capitalism, no more than Communist state leaders deciding to steal from the coffers to benefit their own families literally has nothing to do with Communism; these are actions that the individuals choose to do on their own because, personally, they are scumbags.

Blaming the system itself for their actions is the height of ignorance.

Andre Owens - I'm not here to educate you. If you didn't study history in school and have no interest in doing your own work I can't help.

Muhammad Rasheed - Andre Owens wrote: "I'm not here to educate you."

hahahahahaha!

Muhammad Rasheed - Cute. awww...!

Muhammad Rasheed - Russell Farmarco wrote: "It's not a matter of whether Communism is shitty, I agree it is, but it should not be illegal to be one."

The US gov had reason to believe that members of the Communist party had infiltrated the gov and they set up a department whose job it was to confirm. After floundering around a bit, they asked hard-charging Senator Joseph McCarthy to head it up, a good job for him because he: 1.) had a reputation for not being bought off by people to compromise his stance on things and 2.) could be a convenient scapegoat in case things went bad. That very same hard-charging/can't-be-bought-off attitude made him a lot of enemies for the usual reason in political circles.

Just a few years into the investigations they discovered proof that Communist infiltrators had absolutely infiltrated the highest reaches of the gov and had sold atomic bomb secrets to the Soviets.  With the seriousness of the problem evident to everyone involved, McCarthy's team was given more power.

Muhammad Rasheed - It would not be enough.

Muhammad Rasheed - The problem was actually FAR worse than McCarthy had envisioned. The Communist party had not only infiltrated the US gov, but had deliberately targeted the entire Intellectual Class of the country; strong recruitment efforts in colleges among both students and faculty, and more importantly, placed themselves in the forefront of every group fighting for human rights and progressive ideals. They schemed to make Communism linked to everything worth fighting for among the intellectual class, who were trying to break the oppressive chains of old systems, like jim crow. Because of this, the entire Who's Who of every human rights leader had absolutely been to at LEAST one Communist meeting. In quite a few individual cases, the efforts to link Communism to these 100% worthy causes was indeed successful, though, like Red Skew above, they could not tell you how Communism itself was also equally worthy.

Andre Owens - Nice cut and paste job. You know you're supposed to give credit to other peoples ideas or at least use quotation marks.

Muhammad Rasheed - Because of the obvious revealed seriousness of the atomic bomb secrets scandal, McCarthy could not afford to cherry pick which groups or individuals they wanted to investigate. If they touched Communism AT ALL they were worthy of investigation, and because of the Communist party's brilliant tactics, there were very few people who hadn't. Of the many, many, Many, MANY! people who were subpoenaed into the hearings, of course not all of them subscribed to the Communist party personally, but they certainly had been to the meetings on at least one occasion, or had some other tie to it, even through close acquaintances.

Muhammad Rasheed - Andre Owens wrote: "Nice cut and paste job. You know you're supposed to give credit to other peoples ideas or at least use quotation marks."

This is 100% my own words, summarizing it based on my own research over the years, as I go (interesting how you were unable to do the same with your own "research."  Do you see the difference between being spoon fed someone else's stuff and using critical thinking in your own research/study?). It's a fascinating topic. Imagine my disappointment when my effort to get you to discuss it to possibly add to my body of knowledge produced your hissy fit & tizzy.

Andre Owens - Sorry man, I apologize. I shouldn't have assumed it was cut and paste.

Andre Owens - And to quote Muhammad Ali, “I Ain't Got No Quarrel With The VietCong...No VietCong Ever Called Me Nigger.”

Muhammad Rasheed - Andre Owens wrote: "And to quote Muhammad Ali, 'I Ain't Got No Quarrel With The VietCong...No VietCong Ever Called Me Nigger.'”

It's a great quote, and pregnant with meaning, but within this context -- on the heels of you saying "So?" to the well-documented, and unprecedented atrocities that Communism has brought in its wake -- I honestly fear if the brainwashed Marxists in our society have their way. What will keep those same atrocities from being afflicted upon American soil? I know my own people will probably be the first to eat it.

Andre Owens - I still go back to whats wrong with Communism? No Communist country colonized Africa, the Americas, Australia, and New Zealand.  This was all done by Capitalist society. I also find it hard to debate someone who hasn't read Das Kapitial or The Communist Manifesto. You dont see me debating the particulars of Islam as I've only read parts of the Koran.

Andre Owens - I guess Slavery isn't unprecedented in your mind. Although I can understand why you have no problem with slavery as (The sections that I have read) your holy book condones it.

Muhammad Rasheed - Andre Owens wrote: "I still go back to whats wrong with Communism?"

I'm pretty sure I answered that already.

The individual makes up the basic component of our society. Society should take care of that basic unit first, and then spread outward. Starting from the State level and then trickling down to give the individual the filtered crumbs has proven not to work. It leads to an oppressive society in which resources are mismanaged by elitists.

Muhammad Rasheed - Andre Owens wrote: "No Communist country colonized Africa, the Americas, Australia, and New Zealand."

What does "colonizing" have to do with capitalism (this is rhetorical, of course, since you seem to have a disdain for actually answering questions in a normal human discussion)? As a capitalist myself, who have I colonized? Should I? When you sell copies of Force Galaxia, is it in your entrepreneurial business plan, as a capitalist, to colonize New Zealand? WHO TOLD YOU that wiping out populations & colonizing countries was part of capitalism? WHY DO YOU BELIEVE THAT????

Andre Owens wrote: "This was all done by Capitalist society."

It was done IN a capitalist society. What does it have to do with the principles of capitalism itself? Can I buy/trade in a Free Market without colonizing a country? Why or why not?

Andre Owens wrote: "I also find it hard to debate someone who hasn't read Das Kapitial or The Communist Manifesto."

Imagine how difficult it is to discuss the Saga of Joe McCarthy with someone who -- although he is mysteriously VERY passionately against it -- literally doesn't know anything about it. "Google it" indeed.

Andre Owens wrote: "You dont see me debating the particulars of Islam as I've only read parts of the Koran."

Didn't stop you from taking an erroneous swipe at it earlier during your pitiful misdirection attempt.

Muhammad Rasheed - Andre Owens wrote: "I guess Slavery isn't unprecedented in your mind."

There's a fundamental difference between "slavery" and eugenic "mass killings." At least as a slave I'm still alive, and have the potential to be a Harriet or a Frederick. My options are significantly narrower lying belly up in a mass grave with my limbs all askew.

Andre Owens wrote: "Although I can understand why you have no problem with slavery as (The sections that I have read) your holy book condones it."

You would've been safer if you had continued to stand upon "I don't know it so I won't speak on it." The Qur'an lists freeing a slave as a great good deed in the list of good deeds, and as you should know, says that performing good deeds is how the believer will get into heaven. Does that sound like "condoning" to you, sir? Hm?

Muhammad Rasheed - Anyway, eventually the McCarthy hearings did go bad, as the Senator's team investigated people who were powerful enough to push back, and push back HARD. Predictably his government sponsors left him out to hang on his own, and the entire enterprise magically was assigned to him and him alone, so now his very name bears the stigma of his government's betrayal.

Andre Owens - Oh I see, it was all a conspiracy against the good man Joe McCarhty.

Andre Owens - David Icke makes more sense.

Muhammad Rasheed - - Today, as you well know, the Intellectual Class remains fully indoctrinated in Marxist-Communist ideologies; very dangerous considering they are in a position to influence policy, and the common thought as our Western society educators.

Muhammad Rasheed - Andre Owens wrote: "David Icke makes more sense."

The "sense" is merely the facts of history, which you are oddly devoid despite your proudly-flaunted degree.

Andre Owens - Well you just outed yourself as not being the Intellectual Class. So by your own admission you dont know what you're talking about. You keep jabbing about my degree when I mentioned it in passing when you said I no nothing about history. You have a childish taunting debating style that I'm gonna no longer participate in.

Andre Owens - Good day sire.

Muhammad Rasheed - Andre Owens wrote: "You keep jabbing about my degree when I mentioned it in passing..."

You didn't mention it in "passing," you mentioned it as an attempt to bluff me, as if it meant your knowledge of history couldn't be questioned in any way.

Muhammad Rasheed - Andre Owens wrote: "Well you just outed yourself as not being the Intellectual Class."

lol Yes, I'm a maverick.

Muhammad Rasheed - Good bye, Red Skew.

Russell Farmarco - Several posts above, Andre, you said something like "I guess you guys are willing to forgive capitalism its sins but I'm not". Firstly, I am just looking pragmatically at the whole of each system. Both are run by humans and therein lies the evil rub, evil will be done. So I do not forgive capitalism its sins but still see it as doing more good and less evil than communism. By the same token does you "So?" mean you forgive communism for it's killing of 94 million people last century?

Andre Owens - No, I dont forgive Communism. But how do you explain 100 million African's killed in colonization for profit in a capitalist system. http://www.mobilization2-21.com/missing.htm

Scott Kecken - Andre, where do you find the time to reply? Why even bother?

Andre Owens - Scott, I sit in front of a computer all day at work. This is merely a distraction. I'm a sucker, thats why I reply. I should know better.

Scott Kecken - Gods bless you.

Muhammad Rasheed - “The great outline of research comes to light best in dialog.” ~Otto Toeplitz, mathematician (1 Aug 1881 – 15 Feb 1940)

Russell Farmarco - So we both don't forgive these systems for their evils, just wanted to get that straight that your weren't serious that Muhammed and I forgave capitalism its sins. I certainly didn't think you forgave Communism its murder of 94 million years. I have no explanation for that other than racism and the evil of man. Though that is a site with a specific agenda and it is making several assumptions over a longer time period, it is unarguable that the white world raped and exploited Africa beyond belief. Much of that time period, however, there were monarchies in the most powerful countries, more so than regular democratic capitalism. And since communism didn't exist then it's hard to argue that it's less evil, or better. Still, as a response to the evil flaws in this capitalist system, I believe that communism is even worse. During the periods where they have existed side by side, we can both point to atrocities on the watch of each system, but it's a lot easier to point to all the good things democratic capitalism has brought the people of the world (the NFL, The Beatles, Muhammed Ali, Skype (free service), the moon landing, the Bill of Rights, civil rights, Google (basically free), nearly every positive scientific invention, multiple by pass open heart surgery, etc to infinity) than it is to come up with a list of 10 great things communism has produced.

Andre Owens - The Soviets were the first to space. Had the first woman in space decades before the west. The Chinese Communist have over 1 million folks assisting in Africa today. Also, this: "The positives of communism are that all production is planned democratically and geared toward providing for peoples needs rather than just generating profit. The result is that the majority of people (the proletariat) are able to work less and get more (because they are not sacrificing so much of the fruit of their labour for the benefit of the bourgeoisie's profits). This was summed up by Karl Marx in the phrase:

'From each according to his ability, to each according to his need' " 

Andre Owens - And really "to infinity?" Think thats a bit of hyperbole.

Andre Owens - And then there's this: "The USSR and China may have claimed to be communist but in reality they had little to do with what was theorized by Karl Marx (it's like George Bush claiming to be for small government while presiding over the biggest deficit ever) and their choice to claim this label has more to do with attempts to disguise the oppressive nature of the regimes than any sort of liberation."

Russell Farmarco - Yes, that was hyperbole, Thanks for recognizing it as such.

Russell Farmarco - So if it works so well, how come the Soviet Union collapsed economically? Yeah, it looks good on paper but that is always the excuse of those who romanticize the brutal attempts at Communism. "Yeah, they murdered nearly 100 million people in a century but they weren't REALLY communist." So why are people always trying to get out of communist countries to come here and no one (hyperbole alert!) is going to those countries, not even folks like you who profess to prefer it?

Andre Owens - Its the same reason when one brings up the atrocities in peoples holy books, they always retort, "Thats not real Christianity or Islam." Its the same reason that Ben Affleck attacked Bill Maher over his anti-Islam stance. In other words its deflection from inconvenient truths. Its the reason that people take their children to be indoctrinated in a religion yet claim that its the word of a god and get defensive.

Russell Farmarco - So this defender sod Communism are deflecting?

Andre Owens - And if Communism is so bad, why did the US ally with them in WWII?

Russell Farmarco - This is a good story regardless of one's POV: http://blog.chron.com/.../when-boris-yeltsin-went.../...

Russell Farmarco - To deafeat the greater threat of the moment.

Russell Farmarco - And the Nazi's were a form of socialism too.

Andre Owens - And if Communism is so bad, why do over 60% of Russians want its return after living with wonderful capitalism for two decades? http://www.systemiccapital.com/60-percent-of-russians.../

Andre Owens - You didn't just say that Nazi's were socialist too? Oh because the name was National Socialists, they are somehow socialist? The Nazis hated the communists. Thats a historical fact. So, if the Nazis was a form of socialism, what do you call The Federal Highway system?

Andre Owens - Next thing, you guys are gonna tell me the US Civil War wasn't over Slavery.

Russell Farmarco - True the "socialist" name was more of a Trojan Horse as only socialists could get gain political traction in Germany at that time. They were straight up gangsters but they had some of the "benefits" of a socliaized society: health care, jobs programs etc.  Whether defined as fascism or socialism the real problem is they were racist totalitarian gangsters.

The Federal Highway system is also a form of socialism, the good kind!

I believe an unsexy mix of free markets and light socialism is the way to go.

Russians want communism back because they are essentially ruled by the same totalitarian powers but in a different form. But they were closer to communism when they had that wall up to keep people from leaving (always a mark of a successful system, a wall to keep people IN!) and then collapsed than they are to capitalism now.

And yes, the Civil War was over slavery. A weird kind of badge of honor that the country would engage in a civil war to get rid of slavery. Perhaps unprecedented historically, but you're the history major so let me know if there's a parallel.

Russell Farmarco - And have a great weekend, btw!

Andre Owens - I was a history Minor, but let's no quibble. Yeah, its a huge black mark on this country that it took a Civil War to get rid of slavery.  But after 400 years of slavery, 100 years of Jim Crow and 50 years of The War on Drugs this country still has promise.

Russell Farmarco - True dat.

Muhammad Rasheed - Russell Farmarco wrote: "So we both don't forgive these systems for their evils, just wanted to get that straight that your weren't serious that Muhammed and I forgave capitalism its sins."

To be clear, I do not recognize the 'sins' belonging to capitalism, but to unscrupulous, individual businessmen. People are quite capable, as demonstrated in my examples above, of taking part in capitalism and enjoying the fruits thereof without engaging in practices that encroach upon the human rights of others. Vile atrocities are not part of the capitalism package. Why? Because capitalism is only 'an economic system in which investment in and ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange of wealth is made and maintained chiefly by private individuals or corporations,' and is not an all encompassing system designed to define/improve all aspects of human life like an organized religion. It's a civilizational tool, one that goes hand-in-hand with the religions, philosophies, creeds, ethics, etc. that the individual businessmen bring to the table.

AN ANALOGY:

There are three bus drivers. One drives his bus along the scheduled route, one goes out of his way to pick up people who can't get to the bus stop on time, while the third plows his bus into a crowd of children at the park on Fair Day. The bus drivers are businessmen, the buses they drive are Capitalism. Andre subscribes the atrocities committed by the third driver to the bus itself, and wants to overturn the bus system altogether.

Muhammad Rasheed - Andre Owens wrote: "And really "to infinity?" Think thats a bit of hyperbole."

The truth of the matter is that the inventions and compiled societal improvements are quite numerous and continue more and more with each passing year. This from the normal competition in the Free Market that entrepreneurs work in.

Andre Owens wrote: "Andre Owens The Soviets were the first to space. Had the first woman in space decades before the west."

Ironically they were able to do so because of the international competition that mimicked the capitalistic Free Market system as each country competed with the other.

Muhammad Rasheed - Andre Owens wrote: "And then there's this: 'The USSR and China may have claimed to be communist but in reality they had little to do with what was theorized by Karl Marx...'"

You're quoting this, but if this is actually your argument, do you realize it is hypocritical?

Muhammad Rasheed - Russell Farmarco wrote: "So if it works so well, how come the Soviet Union collapsed economically? Yeah, it looks good on paper..."

No, it doesn't. It looks like trickle-down nonsense on paper, and in reality, it immediately strayed from the intended ideals by virtue of it being backwards nonsense. In order to work at all, first the individual's rights must be protected and maintained in a free society, and then a socialist-lite system placed on top to protect the weaker citizens, and maintain public systems.

Russell Farmarco - Muhammad, I get you point, but capitalism by its nature and its engine of greed often leads to people failing their own belief systems.  And when it's a democratic capitalist society that invades countries (as we have in every war since WW2) where economic philosophy is a key player then yes, that system hates in the responsibility of those evil deeds. But it's WAAAY better than communism, we agree in part on that.

Muhammad Rasheed - Andre Owens wrote: "Its the same reason when one brings up the atrocities in peoples holy books, they always retort, 'Thats not real Christianity or Islam.' Its the same reason that Ben Affleck attacked Bill Maher over his anti-Islam stance. In other words its deflection from inconvenient truths. Its the reason that people take their children to be indoctrinated in a religion yet claim that its the word of a god and get defensive."

This is actually the post that brought me back.  ("Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice, BEETLEJUICE!") The so-called "inconvenient truth" lies in the opposite direction, alas. If the source scriptures say XYZ, but the people and theologians say ABC, then the attempted vilifications by those who only pretend to understand the religion is only foolishness. Only those who are in the know are in a position to say what is an "inconvenient truth" or not, and I've already demonstrated that you are not in that club. Stand down on the religious topic, Andre. You do NOT know what you are talking about.

Andre Owens - I'll concede that man. I'm an adult so I dont need to know the mythology of fairy tales. Thats definitely in your wheel house. I'll withdraw my comment and apologize for daring to step onto your turf.

Muhammad Rasheed - Forgiven.

Muhammad Rasheed - Big head. :P

Andre Owens - Thank you Father.

Muhammad Rasheed - You're welcome, my son. Have a cookie.

Muhammad Rasheed - Russell Farmarco wrote: "Muhammad, I get you point, but capitalism by its nature and its engine of greed often leads to people failing their own belief systems."

Negative.  It is in the nature of the humans themselves to pursue greed (is it not listed as number 3 in the Seven Deadly Sins?) and who fail to live up to their ideals.  The ideals themselves, and especially those economic systems that require flawed, sin-prone humans to function, are not at fault. Not unless, like Communism, the system is designed ass-backwards and is fundamentally flawed "on paper."

Russell Farmarco wrote: "And when it's a democratic capitalist society that invades countries (as we have in every war since WW2) where economic philosophy is a key player then yes, that system hates in the responsibility of those evil deeds. But it's WAAAY better than communism, we agree in part on that."

Again, it wasn't the society that invaded, nor the economic system, but individual businessmen/world leaders who decided to do so. Are there other, more humane ways of acquiring resources that don't rely on leadership being assholes? Of course. Well, why didn't those world leaders try those ways instead? Because individually... personally... they did not adhere to the Seven Virtues and attempt to make them part of their lives. Capitalism doesn't have a component for ethics/morality. It's not supposed to. That's not what it's for. That's what religion is for. That's what "being raised right in the principle of the Golden Rule" is for. If the individual capitalist lacks this trait and/or personal training, then he/she IS going to sow mischief in the earth when he conducts business. This is NOT the fault of capitalism. Not at all. This is the equivalent to blaming the hammer because the wielder stripped all the threads on the screw with it trying to twist it into the wood with the claw part. The screw is the abused society, the hammer is capitalism, the unused screwdriver is religion/morality/ethics, and the wielder is King Leopold II.

See Also:

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