Only Us - The Protestant Monopoly on Forgiveness & Salvation

Kamau Mkafele Mshale - [shared meme]

Camille Campbell-Johnson - I do believe some of this is true. But for myself, I don't know what my African spirituality is or where I am from. I would like to learn. I think that Black folks don't understand their history cause it has always been taboo to seek the past other than world religion. ijs

Warren Eugene Merrick III - Here's a question for you. What benefit is it to know of a spirituality that cannot offer forgiveness of sin, redemption and eternal life? Just because we are "African American" does not obligate us to be beholden to that which is foreign to us. As a Christian the only use in knowing other religions is to be able to effectively evangelize, other than that it's just information that has no bearing on my life.

Iman Olujimi - Bless up!!! All religion ah Afrikan!!! I and I Jah Rastafari.!!! One love...

Kimberly Moseberry - Christianity was and is built on sin and being cruel. Yes there are African beliefs that speak on love, respect and forgiveness.

Militant Mosby - I know plenty of Africans who don't talk about it either.

Kamau Mkafele Mshale - i didn't realize people would comment but i guess that make sense given the topic. I, like Camille Campbell-Johnson don't know what my my ancestors believed, or who exactly they were. and I had the test done. They told me my people are Tuareg, but that really doesn't tell me everything and from what i've learned about dna testing in that reguards, thats not even the whole story.

I don't think (despite the tone of the text) it's meant to be an indictment, i think it's more of an observation and challenge. Black people only know about the religions of our captors, Warren Eugene Merrick III i don't know much about Coptic Christianity, but i do know the version of Christ most people in america including african americans know is white, and hes not white cause the bible says so, he white because some white guy painted him that way. I think more black people even if they have chosen Christianity or Islam should seek to understand the roots of religion and of the religions of there people. I'm also going to do a black jesus, mary and child and some other biblical figures at some point gotta read more about them first

Kimberly Moseberry - Warren if I were stupid and blind. I'd whole heartedly believe you.

Kamau Mkafele Mshale - calm down kim warrens a good dude. people just believe what they believe. it's impossible to argue religion. its just about what you think is true.

Warren Eugene Merrick III - Kimberly you are mistaken, Christianity is built on Christ and his love, he demonstrated that love in dying to pay the penalty of our sin. I'm not talking about a religion that teaches about love and forgiveness, I'm talking about a savior that offers love and forgiveness. No other religion can offer that thereby making them empty and dead.

Kamau Mkafele Mshale - thats all believe though warren. in effect alll religions offer that, they just use different words. Practitioners of Islam would say the same of Christianity.

Warren Eugene Merrick III - The implication Kimberly being that I'm stupid and blind?

Kamau, I'm aware of the history of the church, though it should be noted that it was the Catholic church that concocted that image of Jesus, I know he was a man of color.

Kimberly Moseberry - All religious beliefs offer love and forgiveness.

Warren Eugene Merrick III - I've actually studied other religions, even Islam; what differentiates Christianity from the rest is that they are works based, it is up to the practitioner of the religion to earn salvation. In Christianity all one must do it's repent and believe, all the doing, all the work was done by Christ, hence his saying before he died "It is finished". There is no more to be done, nothing that can be added, we only need believe.

Warren Eugene Merrick III - But none of them can guarantee salvation, look it up for yourself, they make no definite claims that you'll gain heaven. So all the observances of ritual mean nothing, also forgiveness is not offered, forgiveness is talked about. All the other religions offer is behavior modification for sin but no deliverance from it.

Iman Olujimi - La illah ha Lila Lah. Say it and your in...heaven, that is. Alhamdulillah!! Research shows the African origins of Islam. ..just makes sense geographically

Iman Olujimi - And...the tuareg were/ are Muslim so I'm good

Muhammad Rasheed - Ancestral Voices wrote: "Black folk can tell you about every religion under the sun, but too scared to talk about their own African spirituality."

My religion is DEEPLY personal, and is directly related to my concern for my eternal soul's salvation. My knowledge of religion is not a mere idle academic exercise, but the side effect of a very serious shopping effort to make sure I picked the best one for me. In my research the phrase "African spirituality" is divorced from the worship of the One God who made me, and is one of the many references for paganism, which is the very last thing my soul needs to prosper.

Muhammad Rasheed - Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: "I've actually studied other religions, even Islam; what differentiates Christianity from the rest is that they are works based, it is up to the practitioner of the religion to earn salvation."

The original version of the Christian message as taught by the Christ, and later by his younger brother and hand-picked heir, was also works based. "Faith without works is dead." If your actions do not reflect your belief in God, then you do not believe despite what you claim.

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: "In Christianity all one must do it's repent and believe, all the doing, all the work was done by Christ, hence his saying before he died 'It is finished.'"

When the rich man asked the Christ what must he do to be saved, the messenger told him two things: Keep the commandments, and to give of his wealth in charity. That's Islam's exact message.

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: "There is no more to be done, nothing that can be added, we only need believe."

You need to both believe in your Guardian Lord who made you, and obey Him. The obedience involves resisting the temptations of sin, and doing good works. The very best good works for your soul is the giving of your wealth in charity, so said the Christ you claim to follow.

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: "But none of them can guarantee salvation, look it up for yourself, they make no definite claims that you'll gain heaven."

We are all assured of paradise if we do what the Lord commands.

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: "So all the observances of ritual mean nothing..."

The rituals strengthen your discipline and make it easier to keep the commandments and give of your wealth to the needy. There is no good in a religion without its ritual.

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: "...also forgiveness is not offered, forgiveness is talked about."

Forgiveness is given after sincere repentance.

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: "All the other religions offer is behavior modification for sin but no deliverance from it."

Repentance is both "behavior modification" and deliverance.

Warren Eugene Merrick III - You've taken a great deal of what I said out of context. Yes faith without works is dead, but the thief on the cross next to Christ that asked Him to remember him when Christ came into His kingdom had no works and yet Jesus said to him "Today you shall be with me in paradise." Nothing we do earns our salvation, we obey because we have been given a new spirit and because we love He who has saved us.

Muhammad Rasheed - Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: "You've taken a great deal of what I said out of context."

Which?

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: "Yes faith without works is dead..."

Of course it is.

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: "...but the thief on the cross next to Christ that asked Him to remember him when Christ came into His kingdom had no works and yet Jesus said to him "Today you shall be with me in paradise.'"

It was also a story that was simply made up by the evangelist's speech that it was based upon, obvious in how it contradicts what Jesus said to the rich man, as well as the works based message of James' book.

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: "Nothing we do earns our salvation..."

Our obedience to the commands of our Lord we worship earns our salvation. That is the sole criterion that separates the believer from the hellbound.

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: "...we obey because we have been given a new spirit and because we love He who has saved us."

We obey because we recognize the Lord's message as True.

Warren Eugene Merrick III - On what authority do you say that the thief on the cross story is a lie, what evidence do you have to support this blasphemy?

Muhammad Rasheed - Exactly what I said. It directly contradicts what Jesus told the rich man, as well as the Jamesian message that Jesus himself propagated. The bible itself is my evidence, and the message of the One God of Abraham is my authority.

Iman Olujimi - Eh ha ha ha ha!!! No win here. Yall need to stop. To you be your way to me be mine

Warren Eugene Merrick III - Tell me, I'm curious, are you Muslim or some form of Christian?

Muhammad Rasheed - The fact that you consider a challenge to the dialog on the cross to be "blasphemous" is telling, and suggests that you feel the same way about the Christ's instruction to the rich man as the rich man himself. That is NOT good. If you care about the ultimate fate of your soul, you need to seriously reevaluate.

O you who believe! Obey your Guardian Lord who made you and keep His commandments! If you truly believe, then in your wealth is a recognized right for the needy; give to them in charity so that you may prosper!

Muhammad Rasheed - This the only way to salvation.

Kamau Mkafele Mshale - i agree with my mom .... that speaks volumes

Warren Eugene Merrick III - You didn't answer my question, and you'd do well not to presume to think you know what I think. Are you Muslim or are you a Christian?

Kamau Mkafele Mshale - is that a question for me or muhammad? i'm neither

Warren Eugene Merrick III - A question for Muhammad.

Muhammad Rasheed - Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: "You didn't answer my question..."

And you didn't address a single Item I brought up in my posts. That makes us even, I guess.

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: "...and you'd do well not to presume to think you know what I think."

That's cute. Especially considering there's quite a few posts here in which you've taken the time to explain exactly what you think, so I fail to see how presumption was necessary. You've revealed a very typical protestant-based form of Christianity, with an uncritical eye in your scriptural readings, if you've bothered to read the book at all (I suspect you are satisfied with letting the pastor spoon feed it to you). Before you say stuff like you've studied Islam and other faiths, try actually knowing what you're talking about before you start mouthing off about those faiths. Oh, and it'll help if you get a better grasp on what you're supposed to believe, too. That will make the discussion deeper and more interesting.

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: "A question for Muhammad."

I'm far more interested in pursuing the topic at hand. Nonsense misdirection questions are a waste of my time.

Kamau Mkafele Mshale - So what is the argument here? That christianity is what will save us? or Islam? Or are we just picking at the deeply held beliefs of people i consider friends for fun. Because if it's the latter exercise some self control on MY damn facebook page. Take that shit to a private convo and you can argue with each other all you want. Neither of YOU want to spend time talking about the African origin of anything so it's ALL off topic. If anything the two of you are just proofing the meme right.

Muhammad Rasheed - I was disappointed that no African spiritualists came to discuss it.

Kamau Mkafele Mshale - yea me too

Muhammad Rasheed - *nods*

You need more African spiritualist friends, Mshale.

Muhammad Rasheed - lol

Kamau Mkafele Mshale - clearly M clearly.

Kamau Mkafele Mshale - u coming to ECBACC?

Muhammad Rasheed - No, I'll still be in Kuwait. It'll probably be another couple of years before I can attend again.

Kamau Mkafele Mshale - how long u gonna be out there?

Muhammad Rasheed - Kamau Mkafele Mshale wrote: "So what is the argument here?"

Well, between me and Warren, I'm challenging him based on his stated research on Islam and other faiths regarding his claim that only his form of Christianity offers forgiveness and salvation. Notice that he's trying to squirm out of the topic. The discussion isn't personal since I don't know him, it's just a knowledge versus knowledge battle.

Kamau Mkafele Mshale wrote: "Neither of YOU want to spend time talking about the African origin of anything so it's ALL off topic."

My very first post addressed the thread topic, and even holds a bit of bait for any African spiritualists who read it, but none have challenged me yet. I can wait (as long as you don't delete the thread because of me and Warren's battle).

Muhammad Rasheed - Kamau Mkafele Mshale wrote: "how long u gonna be out there?"

Probably until 2016, but we'll see.

Kamau Mkafele Mshale - just keep your "battle" civil and don't insult each other. I like debate and discussion but to be honest neither of you can win theres no end to it. But if its entertaining for ya knock yourselves out. I personally don't fight battles i can't win if i have another option.

Muhammad Rasheed - Kamau Mkafele Mshale wrote: "just keep your "battle" civil and don't insult each other."

I promise.

Kamau Mkafele Mshale wrote: "I like debate and discussion but to be honest neither of you can win theres no end to it. I personally don't fight battles i can't win if i have another option."

Ah, but I am winning. I've addressed all of his points while he's conspicuously failed to address any of mine. Instead he's attempting to build a strawman by asking me whether I'm Muslim or Christian as if that has anything to do with the topic at hand. Classic misdirection because he knows I'm right, but doesn't want to admit it and lose face.

Kamau Mkafele Mshale wrote: "But if its entertaining for ya knock yourselves out."

You know me better than that, Ishmiel.

Muhammad Rasheed - Kamau Mkafele Mshale wrote: "So what is the argument here? That christianity is what will save us? or Islam?"

Either one if you do them right.

Michael Daniels - @Mo....You do realize that Jesus gave that instruction to the Jewish Prince well before he died right? Before Jesus gave his life that was the essence of the Jewish faith. When He spoke to the theif on the cross both their deaths were iminent therefore He was able to offer (for the first time) the new covenant where His death paid the price for the believer's sin. The Death of Jesus on the cross changed everything. It was a paradigm shift of epic proportions.

Muhammad Rasheed - Michael Daniels wrote: "The Death of Jesus on the cross changed everything. It was a paradigm shift of epic proportions."

So says who? You do realize that doctrine directly contradicts exactly what the Christ preached in his lifetime, right? What did the other three gospel writers have to say about that cross dialog?

Muhammad Rasheed - Like Warren, you too seem over-eager to dismiss the Christ's precise instruction to the rich man in favor of this ambiguous, deeply suspicious, after-the-fact cross dialog doctrine.

Michael Daniels - Says Jesus Himself..."I am the Way, The Truth, and The Life...Now man may reach the Father except through me"----Jesus the Messiah

Muhammad Rasheed - Who packaged the cross dialog into the doctrine you and Warren have your death grip upon? And why are you favoring that over his precise and perspicuous instruction to the rich man?

Michael Daniels - I don't dismiss anything Jesus said....It was in perfect harmony with what He said on the cross...Just different circumstances of the recipient.

Muhammad Rasheed - How was that in perfect harmony? Explain, please.

Michael Daniels - The Jewish prince had a (presumedly) long life ahead of him. Jesus wanted him to accept Him as His Lord. The theif on the cross had presumably already done by his words acknowleging Jesus as the Christ....it was th same message just different circumstances....Written down by the same person btw.

Muhammad Rasheed - Your "perfect harmony" explanation possesses an awful lot of "presumablies" and guesses there, chief.

Michael Daniels - Presumably the rich prince had a long life ahead of him...That was Jesus' presumption not mine...Take it up with Him, He's still alive. THe other presumably was that the theif had accepted Jesus...THe Bible tells us it's not for us to question someone's heart, that's God's job.

Muhammad Rasheed - His instruction to the rich man was precise, non wishy-washy, and lined up with the rest of scripture. The dialog on the cross was very suspect, especially in light of the other gospel writer accounts. Not to mention what Christian scholarship has to say about the authorship of the gospels.

Muhammad Rasheed - Michael Daniels wrote: "Presumably the rich prince had a long life ahead of him...That was Jesus' presumption not mine..."

You are subscribing your own presumption-filled explanation to Jesus? How does that work?

Muhammad Rasheed - Michael Daniels wrote: "THe Bible tells us it's not for us to question someone's heart, that's God's job."

I wouldn't consider it a questioning of the man's heart considering the evidence as I'm laying it out before you suggests that Jesus probably didn't even tell him that.

Michael Daniels - His proclamation to the theif was direct and absolute...For you to say it was wishy washy reveals your pagan, Islamic biases. "Christian scolarship" like any so-called scholarship is a relative term...All the Christian scholars that matter accept Luke a s the author of the book of Luke and attest to its reliability...You can find a so-called "scholar" to say anything.

Jesus said the rich man should sell his stuff and follow Him. THere's an inherent assumption within that request that the Prince would be alive to follow through with it.

You've presented no evidence whatsoever that Luke was in error.

Moses Mullins - Many people seek to say the Bible contains errors. Prior to attacking the Bible they should look at the work of Josh McDowell. As an atheist, he sought to disprove the Bible. He produced a series called "Evidence that Demands a Verdict". I invite anyone's documentation disproving those books.

Muhammad Rasheed - Michael Daniels wrote: "His proclamation to the theif was direct and absolute..."

The fact that it contradicts the message throughout the rest of scripture says someone just made it up and stuck it in there.

Michael Daniels wrote: "For you to say it was wishy washy..."

Building a whole doctrine around it that contradicts everything the Christ said up to that point, is pretty wishy-washy, especially since the messenger himself didn't give it to you as a new doctrine (why is "new doctrine" coming from Jesus suddenly familiar to me...?).

Michael Daniels wrote: "reveals your pagan, Islamic biases."

Is the One God of Abraham suddenly a pagan deity, O Christian? You love building up evidence against yourself for the angels to record, don't you? Have a care.

Michael Daniels wrote: "'Christian scolarship' like any so-called scholarship is a relative term...All the Christian scholars that matter..."

hahahahaha You are no Christian scholar. You wouldn't know one if he bit you.

Michael Daniels wrote: "...accept Luke a s the author of the book of Luke and attest to its reliability...You can find a so-called "scholar" to say anything."

All of the official Christian scholars who actually compile and edit the bible itself say it is foolish to believe the four gospels were actually writ by the men whose names they bear. You do not know scholarship.

Michael Daniels wrote: "Jesus said the rich man should sell his stuff and follow Him. THere's an inherent assumption within that request that the Prince would be alive to follow through with it."

If he would've said "Yes, master" and turned around to do it and dropped dead with the intention still on his heart, he would've been saved. If he spent the next 60 years fretting and trying to find a loophole around it he would not have been saved. Jesus' instruction was clear.

Michael Daniels wrote: "You've presented no evidence whatsoever that Luke was in error."

lol Sure.

Muhammad Rasheed - FROM WIKI - "[Josh] McDowell claims that the 'evidence for Christianity in the Scriptures is not exhaustive, but it is sufficient.'"

Sure, if you already believe in the pauline doctrine. Like Michael and Warren you'll see what you want to see in it based on that belief. I'm pretty dismissive of Paul's version of the message because it is a blasphemy. There is no proof of its legitimacy.

Michael Daniels - If he would said "Yes, master" and turned around to do it and dropped dead with the intention still on his heart, he would've been saved. If he spent the next 60 years fretting and trying to find a loophole around it he would not have been saved. Jesus' instruction was clear.

Agreed, which lines up perfectly with Jesus' reading of the heart of the theif on the cross next to Him.

Muhammad Rasheed - Unfortunately the thief had no intention of doing anything since he was stuck on the tree.

Michael Daniels - He had already done something...He stuck up for and believed in Jesus.

Muhammad Rasheed - Perhaps the mercy of the Lord saved him, but considering what the other gospel writer said about the same event, "Luke's" version was probably a fiction invented by an evangelist.

Moses Mullins - Actually when I was recruited to a lucrative position in the NOI, I searched for a reason to leave Christianity. But after deep study and analysis I chose not to do so. I still have many friends that are either Islamic or in the Nation. One thing is is true on all fronts, the individual believer must live with the actions of the body, good or bad.

Muhammad Rasheed - Moses Mullins wrote: "...the individual believer must live with the actions of the body..."

Explain.

Moses Mullins - It is somewhat different with Christianity than Islam. Islam has two primary divisions while Christianity has two primary divisions with the Protestant half containing multiple denominations.

However there are things done (past & present) by some denominations in the name of Christianity that Christ and many members of that denomination would abhor. I would imagine that it is the same on the Islamic side. Many Imans have condemned some of the violence ordered by other Imans.

However, while I have not researched the accuracy of certain texts listing references in the Koran requiring some troubling actions, if they are true, I would have a hard time viewing most of my Islamic friends obeying those requirements.

Just as I would have a hard time viewing some of my catholic friends obeying some of the dictates of the older papal bulls that have not been revoked.

What I mean is that individuals experience and act on their religion on a personal level. But the body in which they hold membership is subject to human error and excesses. Not to mention internal politics, empire building and misguidance by the enemy.

The individual believer generally does not renounce their membership in their body as a protest against the errors of their leaders. It would seem to hold true even more in Islam as you can't just chose a different division. A Shi'te does not change to a Sunni or one of the smaller branches if they disagree with the policies of the Iman that is the head of the Shi'te or Sunni branch.

Correct me if I am wrong in that belief or do not understand fully how the branches are governed.

Muhammad Rasheed - The message is designed to function on the individual level. The believers coming together to function as a community is secondary. All the items you've listed as flaws take part on the individual level as individual choices... a component of our Free Will. The message of God is for me as an individual. It is divine and is designed to show me how to act so I may save my soul. The bylaws, mission statements, constitutions, etc., of the organization are separate from the message itself and are designed to help the collective body work better as a unit. It's okay to move from organization to organization looking for a body that has their act together, but I fail to see the worth in abandoning the message itself because some folk in the political body aren't acting right. What has that to do with your soul and your walk on the Path?

I will not be judged by God based on what someone else decided to do on their walk. I will only be judged based on my own understanding of scripture and how I walked out my religion based on that understanding. The point of coming together as a body of believers is to strengthen and support each other in our individual walks in the faith.

Warren Eugene Merrick III - Muhammad, you mentioned the story of the rich man and Jesus, yet you jumped in at the middle, you forgot the beginning and the end thus taking its entirety out of context. Yes Jesus told him to keep the commandments and sell all he had, but you fail to see what it was that caused Jesus to tell him to sell all he had. The rich young ruler said that he had kept all of the commandments, he sought to justify himself, then Christ told him to sell all he had and give to the poor. Jesus then told his disciples that it was easier for a camel to walk through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven. The rich man trusted in his wealth, had he done as Jesus told him, it would have demonstrated his faith which is what would have given him eternal life. Faith, not works.

Muhammad Rasheed - 1.) Rich man asked Jesus what he needed to do to be saved.

2.) Jesus told him to keep the commandments.

3.) Rich man said he had already been doing that.

4.) Jesus told him to now spend of his wealth in charity.

Those were the things he needed to do to be saved. He already believed in God, that's why he 'd been keeping the commandments in the first place, which also met the requirement of resisting the temptations of sin. All he had left to do was good works, i.e., charity, then he would've met the full requirement as instructed by the Christ himself.

Warren Eugene Merrick III - You said that Christianity is works based, yet scripture says that we "are saved through faith, and that not of ourselves; it is the gift of God not of works so that no one may boast." Yes I agree as the Bible say s that faith without works is dead, but the works do not save anyone, the works are the evidence of faith, they don't produce faith. I then gave the example of the thief on the cross, to which you said it was a made up story. From where do you get that? You then said that our obedience earns our salvation, but nowhere is that said in scripture, in fact it is repeatedly stated that salvation is a gift. John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." Mark 16:16 "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned." Acts 16:31 "So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” Romans 10:9 "that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." These say nothing of "earning" salvation, all that is required faith...like the thief on the cross next to Christ on the cross. You imply that I'm like the rich man which couldn't be further from the truth, not that it's any of your concern but I give what little I have to the poor on a regular basis, but it doesn't add one bit to my salvation. One of the main reasons I do good works is because we are commanded by Christ to lay up for ourselves treasures in heaven, it has nothing to do with my salvation, but getting for myself more reward. I know how that sounds but it's what Christ told us to do. It's also part of the reason I evangelize; every good work that I do stems from my love for Jesus and to gain treasure in heaven, but it doesn't buy me salvation. If I were never a Christian and were on my death bed and repented of my sin and placed my faith in Christ and then died, I would go to heaven, just like the thief.

Muhammad Rasheed - Here's what I'm going to do ["I'm going to put my left foot on the right side of your face"] I'm going to take you by the hand, and bypass all the apostles, and fake apostles, and walk you directly to what the Christ said about the matter... the very person you clam to follow. You will not have a defense against this.

Warren Eugene Merrick III - The reason I asked if you were Muslim is because it would help me understand in part what perspective you are coming from, it has nothing to do with me avoiding your questions. I love these kinds of discussions because they sharpen me. I suspect that you are in fact a Muslim, given that they, like you don't believe the crucifixion story either.

Muhammad Rasheed - Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: "The reason I asked if you were Muslim is..."

Irrelevant. The perspective I'm using is "What did the Creator command?" The only perspective relevant to those who claim to believe. Stop playing misdirection games.

Warren Eugene Merrick III - Irrelevant to you perhaps, but not to me.

Warren Eugene Merrick III - No games are being played, and pray tell, where is this misdirection?

Muhammad Rasheed - It's irrelevant to the topic because asking me those questions don't have anything to do with it. It's just a transparent attempt to talk about something else.

Warren Eugene Merrick III - Clearly I'm still talking about everything we've been discussing, so how exactly am I changing the topic? It's a simple question. But it's quite alright if you don't tell me, like I said, I suspect I already know the answer.

Moses Mullins - I agree with most of what you said. However, we are judged not only on our actions, but also our failure to take action. If I stand by and to do stop or at least condemn someone else defacing/burning a mosque or a church, I share their blame. I am an accessory after the fact.

Someone once said that " All that is necessary for evil to triumph, is for good people to do nothing".

If I do not vote in the upcoming election, then I have increased the tea party votes.

If I do not stand up and speak out for righteousness, then I have amplified those who stand for and speak out for evil.

Like it or not, the leader of any organized group claims to the the spokesperson for all members of that group.

Muhammad Rasheed - Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: “You said that Christianity is works based…”

That was the message of Jesus, as well as the message of his hand-picked heir, reflected in the Epistle of James.

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: “…yet scripture says that we "are saved through faith, and that not of ourselves; it is the gift of God not of works so that no one may boast."

Is that what Jesus said? No? Then why should I listen to what this person said over Jesus? When the rich man asked Jesus what he needed to do to be saved, did Jesus’ instruction echo this quote?

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: “Yes I agree as the Bible say s that faith without works is dead…”

The evidence is right in your face and you even admit to seeing it. Why do you resist? Do you crave the raging fire of the Pit?

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: “…but the works do not save anyone…”

When the rich man asked Jesus what he needed to do to be saved, what was Jesus’ response? Was it consistent to what you just said?

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: “…the works are the evidence of faith, they don't produce faith.”

Strawman. Who said they “produce faith?” Obviously you must already have faith to perform the practical application of faith in action.

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: “I then gave the example of the thief on the cross, to which you said it was a made up story. From where do you get that?”

Show me an equal story in scripture that backs it up. You will find that it conspicuously stands alone, not only among the four gospels, but the very concept stands alone in all of sacred scripture. It’s clearly a nonsense story.

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: “You then said that our obedience earns our salvation, but nowhere is that said in scripture…”

The rich man asked Jesus what he needed to do in order to be saved. Would the rich man not have had to obey the Christ’s instruction in order to be saved?

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: “…in fact it is repeatedly stated that salvation is a gift.”

Stated by whom?

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: “ John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." Mark 16:16 "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned." Acts 16:31 "So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” Romans 10:9 "that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." These say nothing of "earning" salvation, all that is required faith...like the thief on the cross next to Christ on the cross.”

Are these quotes from the Christ Jesus, son of Mary? Tell me if you know.

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: “You imply that I'm like the rich man which couldn't be further from the truth, not that it's any of your concern but I give what little I have to the poor on a regular basis…”

Then you are saved. Congrats. Keep it up.

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: “..but it doesn't add one bit to my salvation.”

Is that what Jesus said regarding his precise instruction as to how to be saved?

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: “One of the main reasons I do good works is because we are commanded by Christ to lay up for ourselves treasures in heaven, it has nothing to do with my salvation, but getting for myself more reward.”

The treasures in heaven ARE your salvation, Warren. The act of being saved is being rewarded with the treasures of paradise. You are being saved from hell. That’s the whole point.

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: “ I know how that sounds…”

It sounds like you are confused as to the nature of God’s message.

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: “…but it's what Christ told us to do.”

Of course he did! That’s why he was here!

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: “It's also part of the reason I evangelize; every good work that I do stems from my love for Jesus and to gain treasure in heaven, but it doesn't buy me salvation.”

That’s EXACTLY what buys the believer salvation: Believe in God, resist sin, do good works.

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: “If I were never a Christian and were on my death bed and repented of my sin and placed my faith in Christ and then died, I would go to heaven, just like the thief.”

Hell would be your abode. The “have your cake and eat it too” scheme of the death bed conversion doesn’t save anyone.

Muhammad Rasheed - Moses Mullins wrote: “I agree with most of what you said. However, we are judged not only on our actions, but also our failure to take action.”

If you can find that on the list of the 10 Commandments then I’ll believe you. “THOU SHALT NOT FAIL TO TAKE ACTION!”

Moses Mullins wrote: “ If I stand by and to do stop or at least condemn someone else defacing/burning a mosque or a church, I share their blame.”

See above.

Moses Mullins wrote: “I am an accessory after the fact.”

You’re quoting a modern legal speak term, not scripture. My Lord has defined what a sin is and what is not, what I will be judged on and what I will not be judged on. “An accessory after the fact” was never mentioned once.

Moses Mullins wrote: “Someone once said that " All that is necessary for evil to triumph, is for good people to do nothing".

Was that ‘someone’ one of the messengers of God who added that quote to the canon of revealed scripture?

Moses Mullins wrote: “If I do not vote in the upcoming election, then I have increased the tea party votes.”

Yeah? And if you do vote and we still end up with an all tea party Supreme Court, will you go to hell?

Moses Mullins wrote: “If I do not stand up and speak out for righteousness, then I have amplified those who stand for and speak out for evil.”

So? But will the incident come up during Judgment Day?

Moses Mullins wrote: “Like it or not, the leader of any organized group claims to the the spokesperson for all members of that group.”

Will he stand next to me on Judgment Day and absorb my sins for me?

Moses Mullins - Actually a deathbed conversion has a lot of issues. If you know the truth and reject it until right before you die, you constant rejection of the Holy Spirit's attempts to reach you constitutes the unpardonable sin as given in Romans. You are given over to a reprobate mind.

Warren Eugene Merrick III - My analogy of the deathbed confession was a modern day transposition of the thief on the cross event, for all intent and purposes he was on his deathbed and realized his need of a savior and found Him. It wasn't a blanket statement of every deathbed confession.

Muhammad Rasheed - lol

Muhammad Rasheed - It was clearly the story that inspired people to try it.

Muhammad Rasheed - Hellfire will be their reward for the sneaky effort.

Moses Mullins - Actually if the tea party wins we will all be in hell. Jesus gave us the two summaries of the 10 commandments. He taught that you cannot rely on legalistic tricks to excuse sin. Jesus stated he came to fulfill the law. The religious leaders of that time had lapsed into a ritualistic form of obedience to the law. Jesus showed that the law is more than a set of do's and do not's. It is a way of life. That is why the Jews had burnt offerings. It is impossible to keep the law as a ritual. It must be engraved on your heart.

That is why it would be a sin to fail to act when it is in your power to do so.

Muhammad Rasheed - If you have no time to demonstrate your faith, then what evidence will you show on Judgment day that you did indeed believe?

Warren Eugene Merrick III - Perhaps, but how many people actually succeed at it, unless you're terminally ill no one knows at what hour they will die. Most just get snatched into eternity.

Warren Eugene Merrick III - God is not limited to need to see, man looks at the outward appearance, God looks at the heart.

Muhammad Rasheed - Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: "Perhaps, but how many people actually succeed at it..."

Not one.

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: "...unless you're terminally ill no one knows at what hour they will die."

That's the very point. The human lifespan is finite for a reason, and no one knows the hour of their death. Reject the message at your peril. It is the most foolish type of gamble.

Warren Eugene Merrick III - And what message is that?

Muhammad Rasheed - Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: "God is not limited to need to see, man looks at the outward appearance, God looks at the heart."

Judgment Day will determine if you believed, and whether your good deeds outweigh your bad deeds.

1.) If you believed and your good deeds outweigh your bad: Paradise.

2.) If you did not believe and your good deeds outweigh your bad: Hell.

3.) If you believed and your good deeds didn't outweigh your bad: Hell.

Period.

Muhammad Rasheed - Warren Eugene Merrick III: "And what message is that?"

Believe in the One God, resist the temptations of sin, do good works. If you slip up and commit a sin, repent.

Warren Eugene Merrick III - It is not the will of God that any perish, but that all come to repentance. This is the desire of God, if a person makes a sincere deathbed confession, who are we to say that God ignores it. Given that life is finite and we could all die at any moment, every confession is a deathbed confession even if we're standing up. We could be healthy as is possible, repent and confess our faith in Christ and then drop dead. Where then do you suppose those who do that go?

Warren Eugene Merrick III - They had no time to do any good deeds, they were healthy and expected to live another 50 or 60 years but as soon as they repented and confessed their faith in Jesus they died. Where do they go?

Muhammad Rasheed - Moses Mullins wrote: “Actually if the tea party wins we will all be in hell.”

A metaphorical ‘hell on earth’ isn’t the same.

Moses Mullins wrote: “Jesus gave us the two summaries of the 10 commandments. He taught that you cannot rely on legalistic tricks to excuse sin.”

Only God can excuse sin, and He’s the one who said what they were or not.

Moses Mullins wrote: “Jesus stated he came to fulfill the law.”

What does it mean to “fulfill the Law?”

Moses Mullins wrote: “The religious leaders of that time had lapsed into a ritualistic form of obedience to the law. Jesus showed that the law is more than a set of do's and do not's. It is a way of life. That is why the Jews had burnt offerings.”

The problem was that they lacked mercy, and performed only the letter of the Law and not the spirit of it in their earthly judgments among the people.

Moses Mullins wrote: “It is impossible to keep the law as a ritual.”

Based on what? The prophets’ example demonstrated that it could indeed be done, that was part of their mission.

Moses Mullins wrote: “It must be engraved on your heart. That is why it would be a sin to fail to act when it is in your power to do so.”

It would be the right thing as far as taking care of where you live, but it would not be a sin. No one will be judged for the Free Will actions of another.

Warren Eugene Merrick III - This is why works can't save you, this is why you need a savior.

Muhammad Rasheed - What is why?

Warren Eugene Merrick III - Read my above comments.

Muhammad Rasheed - Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: “It is not the will of God that any perish, but that all come to repentance.”

The will of God is what actually takes place in reality, Warren. If it is not in His will it quite simply doesn’t happen.

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: “This is the desire of God…”

The desire of God is what He has put in place: That we all use the gift of Free Will to make the choices we want to make. In the end we will be judged according to those choices.

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: “…if a person makes a sincere deathbed confession, who are we to say that God ignores it.”

“Ignoring a sincere confession” is yet another strawman. Did I say He would ignore it? No. They will be judged, and found wanting and regretting that they didn’t confess earlier as they fall down into the Pit.

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: “Given that life is finite and we could all die at any moment, every confession is a deathbed confession even if we're standing up. “

You’re being silly. The deathbed conversion is when you know your life span is up and you try to sneak the conversion in at the wire. Stop trying to reinvent the phrase’s meaning.

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: “We could be healthy as is possible, repent and confess our faith in Christ and then drop dead. Where then do you suppose those who do that go?”

I’m pretty sure I said “Period.”

Warren Eugene Merrick III - You cannot earn something that is freely given, it doesn't matter how many good works you bring before God, "All of our righteousness are as filthy rags."

Muhammad Rasheed - Who are you quoting? Jesus?

Muhammad Rasheed – So Jesus said this one thing, but this person you are quoting said the opposite. Which one are you hinging your salvation upon and why?

Warren Eugene Merrick III - I'm not being silly at all. You said that a persons good deeds will be weighed against their bad, what if they come to faith while their young (say early twenties) and die right after? Where do they go, or are you telling me that that never happens? You were the one who pointed out the finiteness of life, this was your point. Given that all of us could die at any moment, every confession of faith could be the very last thing a person does, they had no time to do any good works so where do they go?

Muhammad Rasheed - If you believe, but your deed record does not reflect it, you will go to hell.

Warren Eugene Merrick III - You're not addressing the crux of this question. A young person who wasn't religious but suddenly felt the call of God on his life and responds by repentance and faith dies right after, you're telling me that he goes to hell because he didn't do any good deeds? That's the problem with believing in a works based religion, there is no assurance of salvation, because how can you know if you've ever done enough? Do you know, can you say with any degree of certainty that when you die you'll go to heaven?

Warren Eugene Merrick III - I'm actually asking you that question, it's not rhetorical.

Muhammad Rasheed - Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: “You're not addressing the crux of this question. A young person who wasn't religious but suddenly felt the call of God on his life and responds by repentance and faith dies right after, you're telling me that he goes to hell because he didn't do any good deeds?”

I fail to see how I didn’t address it. It seems like I point blank answered it.

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: “That's the problem with believing in a works based religion, there is no assurance of salvation…”

That’s an interesting statement. The problem with your faith-alone based doctrine is that not a single quote you gave for it came from Jesus, and in fact, the Christ’s actual instruction regarding how we become saved is not a faith-alone concept. So where does YOUR assurance come from if the being you claim to follow never propagated that doctrine?

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: “…because how can you know if you've ever done enough?”

If you make sure you repent of any sin you do, your good deeds will always be heavier on the Cosmic Scale. Easy.

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: “Do you know, can you say with any degree of certainty that when you die you'll go to heaven?”

Of course! God’s message is true. If I simply do as He commands I will achieve the reward of paradise. I will have no need to fear, nor shall I grieve.

Now with His infinite mercy it’s possible that the kid you described in the scenario could win free to a lower level of heaven (spending eternity hanging up peoples’ jackets in the coat room), but that is God’s department. All I know for sure is the raw judgment aspect that the normal cases will fall under.

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: "I'm actually asking you that question, it's not rhetorical."

Ironic considering how often you ignore my questions. Psh.

Moses Mullins - Jesus fulfilled the law by living it and becoming the only person who ever kept the entire law. Therefore when he summarized them, he showed us that the role of the law is to show us the ideal to which we aspire. Countless good men & women have aspired to "love the Lord thy God" and to "love thy neighbor as thine self. They have never been able to be perfect as Jesus and keep the entire law.

You are right that "The problem was that they lacked mercy, and performed only the letter of the Law and not the spirit of it in their earthly judgments among the people." That and the many ceremonial and other rules were never part of the law.

If you love your neighbor as yourself, you would act when it is in your power to aid them. Just as you would look out for your own best interests. Failure to do so is a violation of the commandment to love thy neighbor as thine self.

The serpent is who caused Cain to ask "Am I my brother's keeper?".

Your choices and free will actions are who you are. Making the choice to not be your brother's keeper reflects who you are and what type of spirit lives in you.

We do have free will and we are responsible for our exercise of it. That is why some Germans risked their lives to save some Jews in nazi Germany. that is why some whites risked their lives to help operate the Underground Railroad.

We chose many times to help others. But we also chose many times to not help others. It is those choices that will be examined on Judgement Day.

Jesus illustrated this principle in the parable of the Good Samaritan. Whether or not we wish to say that the others that did not help committed a sin, it is clear that they did not possess the spirit of love that we are told to embrace.

Also you mentioned about deathbed conversions. The case of someone dying without warning after they are born again and someone choosing to wait until they know they are dying to ask for salvation are two different things. In the first case, the person did not wait until he knew he was at death's door to be reborn. In the second case the person tries to play with God's mercy. Praying to be saved is just empty air without true repentance. True repentance is exemplified by a change in your life. If you die suddenly before putting that change into action, God knows that you were sincere. Waiting until you know you are dying, God knows that you don't have true repentance because you never meant to make a change. That's like promising your wife you won't have sex with another woman for a year, right before you go to serve a 12 month prison sentence. You know you won't have the chance to do it anyway, so you can make that promise. Your wife wants that promise when you are in a position to break it. then by not breaking it, she knows you are sincere. God is at least as wise as a wife.

Muhammad Rasheed - Moses Mullins wrote: “Jesus fulfilled the law by living it and becoming the only person who ever kept the entire law.”

Where’d you get that from? It was the job of all of God’s messengers’ to confirm and fulfill the message that came before them.

Moses Mullins wrote: “Countless good men & women have aspired to "love the Lord thy God" and to "love thy neighbor as thine self. They have never been able to be perfect as Jesus and keep the entire law.”

How do you know?

Moses Mullins wrote: “If you love your neighbor as yourself, you would act when it is in your power to aid them. Just as you would look out for your own best interests. Failure to do so is a violation of the commandment to love thy neighbor as thine self.”

I can accept this. Aiding someone in need is a part of charity.

Moses Mullins wrote: “The serpent is who caused Cain to ask ‘Am I my brother's keeper?’”

The adversary doesn’t cause anyone to do anything. He can only suggest. We use our Free Will to intentionally do all we do.

Moses Mullins wrote: “Your choices and free will actions are who you are. Making the choice to not be your brother's keeper reflects who you are and what type of spirit lives in you.”

I have no right to get in the way of someone else exercising their Free Will.

Moses Mullins wrote: “We chose many times to help others. But we also chose many times to not help others. It is those choices that will be examined on Judgement Day.'

Choosing to aid someone is an act of charity. Doing so goes on your record as a credit. There isn’t a column full of things you didn’t act on. If you have the opportunity to aid someone but failed to act on it, that is a missed good deed that could’ve weighed down the scale in your favor. Not acting is only reflected in the might have been, especially if there are unforgivable sins weighing down the other side.

Moses Mullins wrote: “Jesus illustrated this principle in the parable of the Good Samaritan. Whether or not we wish to say that the others that did not help committed a sin, it is clear that they did not possess the spirit of love that we are told to embrace.”

The seven levels of heaven reflect the seven levels of reward for the different believers on various levels of spiritual maturity. Those who have embraced the spirit of love in their hearts will enjoy a greater reward than those whose record reflects a colder tally of raw obedience to the Creator’s message, but they will not be punished for not acting in those moments, they merely shortchanged their reward.

Moses Mullins wrote: “Also you mentioned about deathbed conversions. The case of someone dying without warning after they are born again and someone choosing to wait until they know they are dying to ask for salvation are two different things.”

Yes, the latter can be assured of hellfire, while the former’s case is more complex. That one’s fate will rely solely on the divine Mercy of the Court and the Omniscient insight the Lord possesses. That’s why He is the Judge.

Kamau Mkafele Mshale - heres some questions u religions people if god goes through such great lengths to put the"word" out. why doesn't he just put that shit on a rock in the middle of a town? why is it always on man who can communicate with god when no one is lookin?

Kamau Mkafele Mshale - Why we have to wait for jesus to come back? no matter how good any one is, it don't mean shit cause jesus aint here.

Muhammad Rasheed - Kamau Mkafele Mshale wrote: "heres some questions u religions people if god goes through such great lengths to put the"word" out. why doesn't he just put that shit on a rock in the middle of a town? why is it always on man who can communicate with god when no one is lookin?"

Faith/belief is the activating principle. That demands that it has to be one of us that gives the message.

Kamau Mkafele Mshale - not sure that made sense

Muhammad Rasheed - Kamau Mkafele Mshale wrote: "Why we have to wait for jesus to come back? no matter how good any one is, it don't mean shit cause jesus aint here."

Jesus is only returning on Judgment Day to bear witness for/against the people he personally preached to during his lifetime.

Kamau Mkafele Mshale - jesus ain't been here in ages those people just stitting around waiting for him? why is there a hell when the things done to get you there often have extenuating circumstances

Muhammad Rasheed - Kamau Mkafele Mshale wrote: "not sure that made sense"

When the people of old used to complain as to how the prophets were supposed to be messengers of God when they were but mere men, God replied that if the earth had of been peopled with angels, He would've sent an angel instead.

Kamau Mkafele Mshale - but people don't believe men, gods plan is so shaky it sounds like he wants people to go to hell?

Muhammad Rasheed - Kamau Mkafele Mshale wrote: "jesus ain't been here in ages those people just stitting around waiting for him?"

Yes. In the grave. Judgment will happen after we are all Resurrected.

Kamau Mkafele Mshale wrote: "why is there a hell when the things done to get you there often have extenuating circumstances"

What do you mean?

Kamau Mkafele Mshale - well like if i'm in a war and i kill some one, well is that hell worthy? what about stealing to keep from starving, how about if you are a worker in Indonesia and your tired of putting clothes together for next to nothing and you steal several hats and shirts and sell them your self

Muhammad Rasheed - Kamau Mkafele Mshale wrote: "but people don't believe men, gods plan is so shaky it sounds like he wants people to go to hell?"

Some will be rewarded while some will be punished. Each is free to use their Free Will as they see fit. In the end, despite what the Christians claim, those who get to go to paradise will have earned it by taking that chance. Those who arrogantly refused to give it a shot, will have earned hell.

Kamau Mkafele Mshale - why would god make people wait hundreds or thousands of years, or even a day in the ground?

Kamau Mkafele Mshale - what happens if your grave is removed, what about cremation

Kamau Mkafele Mshale - but isn't that a catch 22, its not arrogant not to believe something some guy told you

Kamau Mkafele Mshale - cause all men lie, who believes a liar? they need some reason to make them believable. maybe thats what "faith without works is dead" means because i wouldn't believe anyone tell me shit without a good list of shit thats good they did. and even at that there are plenty of abuses of power like all those priest and the church that protects them

Muhammad Rasheed - Kamau Mkafele Mshale wrote: "why would god make people wait hundreds or thousands of years, or even a day in the ground?"

You're dead. Do you think you will notice the passage of time?

Kamau Mkafele Mshale - and i know there are gay muslims, murdering musllims, stealing lying thieving muslims but they never let that stuff out in public but they are there

Kamau Mkafele Mshale - yea why wouldn't you. do your senses just not work? hows that work anyway. if your soul is not a physical body how does it see hear or smell those all rely on physical stimuli

Muhammad Rasheed - Kamau Mkafele Mshale wrote: "well like if i'm in a war and i kill some one, well is that hell worthy?"

A single sin isn't 'hell worthy.' Hell worthy is the package of disbelief and more sins than righteous deeds. If your life looks like that when you die, that will be hell worthy.

Kamau Mkafele Mshale wrote: " what about stealing to keep from starving, how about if you are a worker in Indonesia and your tired of putting clothes together for next to nothing and you steal several hats and shirts and sell them your self"

In cases of extreme choices just for raw survival you will not be blamed. It's still better to repent once you make your way out of those circumstances though.

Muhammad Rasheed - Kamau Mkafele Mshale wrote: "what happens if your grave is removed, what about cremation"

The people of old used to incredulously wonder about the resurrection, too. God's response was that He created them from scratch/nothing in the first place, so why would they think it would somehow be harder to resurrect them?

Muhammad Rasheed - Kamau Mkafele Mshale wrote: "but isn't that a catch 22, its not arrogant not to believe something some guy told you"

You have to be pretty humble to deliberately supplant your natural skepticism don't you think?

Kamau Mkafele Mshale - what about suicide @_@. because those answers still sound suspect (i guess as long as i pic a religion and do some thing nice for every terrible thing i do i'm gold) but the guy who commited suicide by self immolation durring the vietnam war, the monk whos name i can't remember at the moment, did a beautiful kind and loving act that helped his people. lots of people, including jesus have died intentionally to help others. isn't that still suicide?

Muhammad Rasheed - Kamau Mkafele Mshale wrote: and i know there are gay muslims, murdering musllims, stealing lying thieving muslims but they never let that stuff out in public but they are there"

And every one of them will be judged on the Last Day. If their bad deeds outweigh their good deeds, in hell they will dwell.

Muhammad Rasheed - Kamau Mkafele Mshale wrote: "yea why wouldn't you. do your senses just not work?"

Your senses are connected to the living body that is now dead.

Kamau Mkafele Mshale wrote: "hows that work anyway. if your soul is not a physical body how does it see hear or smell those all rely on physical stimuli"

The death event will function as a long sleep. Your consciousness will be dormant. God calls sleep "the twin brother of death" for a reason.

Muhammad Rasheed - Kamau Mkafele Mshale wrote: "cause all men lie, who believes a liar? they need some reason to make them believable. maybe thats what "faith without works is dead" means because i wouldn't believe anyone tell me shit without a good list of shit thats good they did. and even at that there are plenty of abuses of power like all those priest and the church that protects them"

That's why it's important to "study to show yourself approved" and not just take people's word for it.

Muhammad Rasheed - Kamau Mkafele Mshale wrote: "what about suicide @_@."

Hellfire. Suicide is the ultimate act of disbelief and hopelessness.

Kamau Mkafele Mshale wrote: "because those answers still sound suspect (i guess as long as i pic a religion and do some thing nice for every terrible thing i do i'm gold)"

Repent of the bad deeds, and do TWO good deeds for every one bad deed to be safe.

Kamau Mkafele Mshale wrote: "but the guy who commited suicide by self immolation durring the vietnam war..."

Hell.

Kamau Mkafele Mshale wrote: "...the monk whos name i can't remember at the moment, did a beautiful kind and loving act that helped his people."

Hell.

Kamau Mkafele Mshale wrote: "lots of people..."

Hell for all.

Kamau Mkafele Mshale wrote: "...including jesus have died intentionally to help others. isn't that still suicide?"

That incident isn't a part of my belief system.

Warren Eugene Merrick III - I've answered all your questions. Where do you get this "cosmic scale of justice" from? Where is that written? From where do you get this "lower level of heaven

Muhammad Rasheed - Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: "I've answered all your questions."

When?

Warren Eugene Merrick III - The entire Bible is God inspired, the words don't have to come from Christ to be God's words. You're taking one verse from scripture and taking it completely out of context, you cannot sum up the whole of Jesus' teaching with just this one story. You say that good works get you into heaven, lets say a criminal, a rapist murderer gets arrested five years after his crime but had turned his life around after he committed the crime; when he stands before the judge will that judge take into account the good he's done or will he judge him based on the law? To say that God lets people in because of good works is to liken him to a corrupt judge who can be bribed. That's not God, that's an idol of your own making. To stand before God and say "Here are my good deeds, let me in." Is to bribe the God of creation. Every question throughout this feed that you asked me I have addressed, and if I've missed any feel free to ask again.

Muhammad Rasheed - Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: "The entire Bible is God inspired, the words don't have to come from Christ to be God's words."

It was the Christ's job to instruct us in wisdom and scripture. He was the anointed messenger. I'm SUPPOSED to listen to him. When another guy shows up with a message that is literally 180° different than what the Christ actually taught, that's a problem to me. It means that one of the two of them is the false prophet. Common sense.

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: "You're taking one verse from scripture and taking it completely out of context, you cannot sum up the whole of Jesus' teaching with just this one story."

Why not? A man point blank asked Jesus Christ what he needed to do in order to be saved and the messenger of God TOLD HIM WHAT HE NEEDED TO DO. Do you hear yourself? Why CAN'T I sum up the whole message of God using his instructions considering that was his JOB?

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: "You say that good works get you into heaven..."

That's one of the things that will get you into heaven, including resisting temptations of sin, believing in God, and repenting when you slip up and sin. The combination of these as a lifestyle will guarantee paradise. The rituals of organized religion are designed to make these items lifestyle.

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: "...lets say a criminal, a rapist murderer gets arrested five years after his crime but had turned his life around after he committed the crime"

Does 'turned his life around' mean he repented of his sin, believes in God, and did good works for the last five years?

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: "...when he stands before the judge will that judge take into account the good he's done or will he judge him based on the law?"

If he did all the things I just posted above then he will be in right standing with his Lord and will achieve paradise. He will have no need to fear, nor shall he grieve.

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: "To say that God lets people in because of good works is to liken him to a corrupt judge who can be bribed. That's not God, that's an idol of your own making. To stand before God and say "Here are my good deeds, let me in." Is to bribe the God of creation."

It seems like you don't really understand the nature of what Jesus told that guy, and why it was significant.

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: "Every question throughout this feed that you asked me I have addressed, and if I've missed any feel free to ask again."

Let's start with the very first one. You said that I took a great deal of what you said out of context with my first response to your posts. I asked, "Which?"

Silence from you.

Warren Eugene Merrick III - You're calling Paul a false prophet! Seriously! I suspect you agree with James because it fits with your idea of God. To be clear, I don't disagree with what James says, I disagree with your interpretation of what he says. Works do not save anyone, faith saves and when one has faith, works follow. I have to ask this, what then is your take on the other apostles, are they false prophets as well or is it only those who seem to have a view contrary to yours? You want the words of Jesus, here you go John 3:16-18 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." Pay close attention to the last two versus. How is the world saved, through Christ. And He goes on to explain how that works... By believing in Him. That right there is faith, from the mouth of Jesus Himself, nothing is said of "earning" or "working" for salvation. The example I gave was of an earthly court not heavenly. This was a criminal, guilty and before the judge, he cleaned up his life but was still guilty of the crime. Does the the judge let him off because he apologized or does he still go to prison, it's a simple question. You say that I don't understand the nature of what Jesus told the guy, you don't understand the nature of Jesus...period. He came to die for the sin of mankind so that we would not have to pay the penalty for those sins, all that is required to have our case dismissed is faith in what He did on the cross. And despite what lies you believe, Jesus did die on that cross and He did rise from the dead three days later.

Muhammad Rasheed - Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: “You're calling Paul a false prophet! Seriously!”

Everything you quoted from Paul earlier directly contradicted what Jesus said. Do you follow Paul or Jesus? Whichever one you don’t pick is the false prophet.

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: “I suspect you agree with James because it fits with your idea of God.”

Not MY idea. James the Just, leader of the first church of Jerusalem propagated the actual message of the Christ. Paul was James' rival and his message was the opposite of the Christ’s.

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: “To be clear, I don't disagree with what James says, I disagree with your interpretation of what he says. Works do not save anyone…”

lol

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: “…faith saves and when one has faith, works follow.”

Your good works ARE your faith. Without them you are going to hell because you have nothing to stand on. Nothing to prove you had faith.

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: “I have to ask this, what then is your take on the other apostles, are they false prophets as well or is it only those who seem to have a view contrary to yours?”

Just Paul. The 12 companions of Jesus were all righteous men who recognized the Christ’s message as true, followed him and earned their place in paradise.

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: “You want the words of Jesus, here you go John 3:16-18 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.  “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

That’s not Jesus. That’s the fictionalized words of an evangelist who was a follower of Paul, whose sermon was put into the gospel of John. The entire NT has Paul’s taint upon it like that. Most of it was either written by him, or written by his later followers. I can’t use it except in those brief areas where they happened to actually quote Jesus for real (see: rich man dialog).

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: “Pay close attention to the last two versus. How is the world saved, through Christ. And He goes on to explain how that works... By believing in Him.”

Jesus Christ, son of Mary is the messenger of God. His job was to instruct the people in wisdom and scripture so they would spiritually prosper. If you lived during the time period, where else would you get the message of God from? You HAD to go through Jesus, exactly in the way the rich man did. You ask him and he would tell you the truth… the same truth of God’s Word all the other messengers would’ve told you: Believe in God, resist temptation of sin, do good works, repent when you mess up.

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: “That right there is faith, from the mouth of Jesus Himself, nothing is said of "earning" or "working" for salvation.”

He SURE told the rich man he had to earn his salvation with very precise instructions, didn’t he?

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: “The example I gave was of an earthly court not heavenly. This was a criminal, guilty and before the judge, he cleaned up his life but was still guilty of the crime. Does the the judge let him off because he apologized or does he still go to prison, it's a simple question.”

Who cares what an earthly judge thinks? Is he Omniscient? Is he the Master of the Day of Judgment? Does he have an eternal heaven or hell to put this man in? Then how could this scenario possibly be relevant to the topic? God is the Judge, Warren. Stop trying to misdirect all the time.

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: “You say that I don't understand the nature of what Jesus told the guy…”

You don’t, and it obviously makes you… and the so-called “Saint” Paul… uncomfortable. That’s why you refuse to acknowledge the lesson.

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: “…you don't understand the nature of Jesus...period.”

I know Jesus Christ better than anyone you know.

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: “He came to die for the sin of mankind so that we would not have to pay the penalty for those sins, all that is required to have our case dismissed is faith in what He did on the cross. And despite what lies you believe, Jesus did die on that cross and He did rise from the dead three days later.”

God anointed Jesus to instruct his people in the Gospel, to teach scripture and wisdom. The same job that the entire Brotherhood of messengers of God had. That was the pact they had with their Creator, to receive His message and teach it to the people. Period.

Warren Eugene Merrick III - That which was taken out of context was the story of the young rich ruler. The rituals don't mean anything, Galatians 4:9-11 "But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? You observe days and months and seasons and years. I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain." Ritual doesn't save you and if it's done in worship of a false god, even less so. I suspect that you approach the Bible with an Islamic perspective, as though the Koran or an Imam can speak with authority on the historicity of the Bible or Jesus. The Bible was (New Testament) was written by the apostles of Jesus who witnessed all those things that transpired, why should we believe what's said about Jesus from the writings of a book that didn't come about until six centuries later?

Muhammad Rasheed - Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: “That which was taken out of context was the story of the young rich ruler.”

You said there was much taken out of context. Show me the proper context, please, and then show me where my interpretation strayed.

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: “The rituals don't mean anything, Galatians 4:9-11 ‘But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? You observe days and months and seasons and years. I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain.’”

More Paul? Jesus specifically told the rich man that he needed to keep the commandments in order to be saved, yet Paul believes he had the right to cancel the messenger’s precise instruction. Tell me, O Christian, do you worship Paul or the Christ?

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: “Ritual doesn't save you and if it's done in worship of a false god, even less so.”

Was the rich man keeping the commandments in the name of a false deity?

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: “I suspect that you approach the Bible with an Islamic perspective, as though the Koran or an Imam can speak with authority on the historicity of the Bible or Jesus.”

For our purposes, my sources are official Christian scholars, including those who’ve compiled, translated, and edited the bible itself.

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: “The Bible was (New Testament) was written by the apostles of Jesus who witnessed all those things that transpired…”

Not according to the official Christian scholars who compiled, translated, and edited the bible itself.  Your knowledge is significantly inferior to theirs.

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: “…why should we believe what's said about Jesus from the writings of a book that didn't come about until six centuries later?”

I’ll play this game briefly. The Qur’an was revealed to the messenger of God and, in the usual routine, confirmed and fulfilled the messages that came before it, the same as the message of Jesus confirmed and fulfilled the Law that came centuries before him. Weird how the weight of the centuries has you talking that way. Do you understand how your own religion works?

Warren Eugene Merrick III - Works are not faith, faith produces works but they are not the same, otherwise those who did not repent and believe but had works could have faith attributed to them. Your statement is utter nonsense. You say that I need works because without them I have nothing to prove that I had faith?! What god do you serve that he is so blind that he cannot see a mans heart. God does not need to see good works, man judges the outward appearance, God looks at the heart. On what authority do say that those words were not of Christ? The Koran, a book written 600 years after the time of Christ, to believe that over the eye witness accounts of the apostles is ludicrous. You say that the 12 that followed Jesus were righteous men, and that that verse has Paul's hand all over it, but Paul did not become a believer until after the resurrection of Christ. I'm not trying to misdirect you, if you are so easily misdirected by a simple question and can't see the relevance than I must conclude that you don't know as well what you think you know. The question is simple and the parallel is clear. If an earthly judge will not disregard the law because of good deeds, how much less will a just and holy God. Your good works apart from faith in Christ will get you nothing but the fire of hell. You don't know Jesus at all, you my friend are lost and in your sin, if you were to die right now you would go to hell. You say that you know Jesus better than anyone, but you don't. If you're a Muslim as I suspect and you believe that Jesus was a prophet, then you also believe that as such Jesus could not lie. But why as he was tempted in the wilderness by the devil, did he tell satan that he should not put God to the test, the implication being that Jesus was God? Why didn't Jesus refuse worship after he healed people? If he was only a prophet as you suppose how could He do all those things? You need to repent and place your faith in Jesus and stop trusting in your works, they cannot and will not save you.

Warren Eugene Merrick III - We should believe the Bible because the prophecies of Christ were fulfilled to a T, there were no such prophecies concerning the false prophet Mohammed. And it is not the same message as the message of Jesus. Jesus' own message was that He came into the world to save the world through Himself, Mohammed can't save anyone.

Muhammad Rasheed - Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: “Works are not faith…”

Works are the practical application of your faith. Without them, your faith is dead. Without the works to back your claims, you are just doing empty talking that will only win you hellfire.

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: “faith produces works but they are not the same, otherwise those who did not repent and believe but had works could have faith attributed to them.”

If you fail to repent of your sin, they will be measured against your good works on Judgment Day.

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: “Your statement is utter nonsense. You say that I need works because without them I have nothing to prove that I had faith?!”

“Faith without works is dead.” It’s in your book. Look it up.

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: “What god do you serve that he is so blind that he cannot see a mans heart. God does not need to see good works, man judges the outward appearance, God looks at the heart.”

When the rich man asked Jesus what did he need to do in order to be saved, what did Jesus tell him? Did the Christ ask him if he had faith, and if so, it’s all good?

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: “On what authority do say that those words were not of Christ? The Koran, a book written 600 years after the time of Christ, to believe that over the eye witness accounts of the apostles is ludicrous.”

The official Christian scholars acknowledge it is foolish to believe that the four gospels were actually written by the men whom they are attributed to.

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: “You say that the 12 that followed Jesus were righteous men, and that that verse has Paul's hand all over it, but Paul did not become a believer until after the resurrection of Christ.”

The four gospels were written way after Paul’s death. Sorry. At this point I’m waiting for you to ask me the hard questions.

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: “I'm not trying to misdirect you…”

I know, you can’t help it.

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: “…if you are so easily misdirected by a simple question…”

How was I misdirected when I recognized you doing it, called you on it, and asked that you stick to the topic?

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: “…and can't see the relevance than I must conclude that you don't know as well what you think you know.”

So you genuinely think a human judge’s insight is the same as that of The Greatest Judge of All? That in a nutshell is the problem with the pauline Christian.

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: “The question is simple and the parallel is clear. If an earthly judge will not disregard the law because of good deeds…”

God is perfect, never makes mistakes, and literally knows every single thing there is to know about you. The human judge comes up short of that and often makes bad and unfair judgments. See how it works?

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: “…how much less will a just and holy God. Your good works apart from faith in Christ will get you nothing but the fire of hell.”

Quite a few times I paired the good works with belief in God, didn’t I, Warren?

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: “You don't know Jesus at all…”

Okay.

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: “…you my friend are lost and in your sin…”

I’ve repented of my sin.

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: “…if you were to die right now you would go to hell.”

Wow. That’s a heck of an upgrade in rank and status you’ve just received. Are you god now? Amazing. How did you do that?

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: “You say that you know Jesus better than anyone…”

Anyone YOU know. Y’all are all Protestants, right? *nods*

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: “…but you don't.”

Okay.

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: “If you're a Muslim as I suspect and you believe that Jesus was a prophet, then you also believe that as such Jesus could not lie.”

He did not. He COULD lie if he wanted, but he didn’t. He was better than that, and lived to a higher standard.

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: “But why as he was tempted in the wilderness by the devil, did he tell satan that he should not put God to the test, the implication being that Jesus was God?”

“Implications?” So you hinge your very soul’s salvation upon “implications” and ignore the precise and clear as day instruction to the rich man? Are you a fool?

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: “Why didn't Jesus refuse worship after he healed people?”

The ‘divine Jesus’ doctrine was invented by Paul. That is the taint the NT possesses.

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: “If he was only a prophet as you suppose how could He do all those things?”

Like Moses before him, the Christ performed miracles through the will and permission of the Lord Most High he served. Duh.

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: “You need to repent and place your faith in Jesus and stop trusting in your works, they cannot and will not save you.”

You need to repent of subscribing sons & partners to the One God (truly He hates that), repent of your sins, continue to do good works and bow down to Him in true, uncompromising monotheistic worship that you may prosper.

Warren Eugene Merrick III - This will be the final thing I say to you concerning this. Repentance is not enough, just like standing before a human judge and saying you're sorry for your crime isn't enough. Faith in Christ is what saves a soul from hell, good works are the fruit of that faith not the cause. I've given you several verses that say this, some of which came from the mouth of Christ Himself and all you've given me is one scripture taken completely out of context. You don't know Jesus and if you think you do you've only deceived yourself. Mohammed is in hell, Allah can't save anybody and neither do good works. Christ said it best when He said "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, no one comes to the Father except through ME." Jesus The Risen Christ is the only means of salvation, all those that try to enter in some other way will be shut out of the kingdom and cast into outer darkness. You are on the broad road that leads to destruction, you need to get on the narrow road that leads to life. I have done my due diligence, I've presented to you the true Christ and not the fictional one you speak of, the choice is now up to you whether to believe the truth that I've given you or the lie that you can earn that which God freely gives. It's up to you. Good day.

Muhammad Rasheed - Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: “This will be the final thing I say to you concerning this.”

Alright. I was surprised when you came back anyway.

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: “Repentance is not enough…”

I had a conversation recently in which I was reminded that the blood sacrifice… at least once in your lifetime… is needed to go along with it. But I’m not sure if that’s what that is for.

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: “…just like standing before a human judge and saying you're sorry for your crime isn't enough. Faith in Christ is what saves a soul from hell, good works are the fruit of that faith not the cause.”

“The cause” is a strawman. Or you are confused. But I’m willing to accept “good works are the fruit of faith” as an accurate interpretation though.

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: “I've given you several verses that say this…”

You’ve given me a lot of quotes from your pet false prophet.

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: “…some of which came from the mouth of Christ Himself and all you've given me is one scripture taken completely out of context.”

Interesting how you casually poo-poo one of the few actual legit quotes from the person you claim to follow, and instead accept everything the false prophet and his minions regurgitated. Wow.

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: “You don't know Jesus and if you think you do you've only deceived yourself. Mohammed is in hell, Allah can't save anybody…”

You know that Arabic-speaking Christians call God “Allah,” right? It’s not a proper name it’s a title meaning “The God.” Allah is the One God of Abraham. The God of Israel, the One who created Jesus from scratch in his mother’s womb. I would watch your mouth if I were you.

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: “…and neither do good works.”

When the rich man asked Jesus what he needed to do to be saved, what was the Christ’s reply?

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: “Christ said it best when He said ‘I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, no one comes to the Father except through ME.’"

He was the messenger of God so, of course. That was true of all the messengers. We wouldn’t even have the scripture if it wasn’t for it being preached by them.

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: “Jesus The Risen Christ is the only means of salvation, all those that try to enter in some other way will be shut out of the kingdom and cast into outer darkness. You are on the broad road that leads to destruction, you need to get on the narrow road that leads to life.”

I’ll be alright.  Between the two of us, I'm the only one with the assurance of my Lord's promise.  You're the one who decided to take your chances with wishy-washy "implications."   smh

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: “I have done my due diligence…”

Have you?

Warren Eugene Merrick III wrote: “I've presented to you the true Christ and not the fictional one you speak of, the choice is now up to you whether to believe the truth that I've given you or the lie that you can earn that which God freely gives. It's up to you. Good day.”

Have a good day, Warren. I pray that the seeds I’ve planted will take root and you will actually learn what it is your Lord requires of you. Until then… Peace.

See Also: 

Weak Meme

Standing on the Cross: Reverend Daniels versus the New Age, pt 1 of 2

Fundamentalism Isn't Really About the Bible; It's About Politics