Monday, June 11, 2018

Kirby Weaponizes the Hadith (poorly)



Kirb Brimstone - @Muhammad... Lol made me think of you and how you don't follow the Hadith tradition [anti-Islam Spam].

Muhammad Rasheed - I follow the Qur'an tradition, and the hadith that directly support the Qur'an's guidance. I'm not an Arab, so I'm not likely to blindly follow old traditions that old Arabs falsely assigned as hadith so they wouldn't lose them.

Kirb Brimstone - Also Why mention Arabs? 75% of Islam follows the Hadith as sacred texts. It is the earliest writings on the life of Muhammad.

Muhammad Rasheed - I mentioned the Arabs because there's a lot of fabricated hadith that were added as pro-Arab traditionalism by the various sultans, sheikhs, mullahs, etc., over the centuries. Since I'm not Arab I have no inclination to kneejerk react to protect that stuff. The Qur'an is the Word of God, and the hadith are not. When God said to follow the way of the prophet, it was because he followed the Qur'an correctly in the Best Practice way God approved of. So if the hadith list items that don't make sense in that Best Practice context because of the political manipulations of greedy men, why would I treat the hadith as infallible?

Kirb Brimstone - Which Hadith? What proof do you have that they were added as pro Arab Hadith. As you know Arabs make up a small part of Islam The majority of Islam sees the Hadith a sacred scripture. What gives you the right to exclude the ones you think are "pro-Arab"?

Muhammad Rasheed - The point of the hadith and the reason why God tells the believers to follow the way of His prophet is my proof.

Muhammad Rasheed
- If we can't reasonably match a hadith with a corresponding verse or concept expressed in the revealed scripture it's supposed to support, then I have no logical reason to take it seriously as anything more than an historical curio.

Muhammad Rasheed - Your futile dream of converting me to Western Christianity is apparently hinged upon your need to somehow trick me into believing the very man-made ahadith are the infallible Word of God that I must accept at face value.

Since I'm not that stupid, you may as well leave me alone now, right?

Kirb Brimstone - How do you "match" Hadith with corresponding verse? This answer is gibberish. Have you even read the Quran or any hadith? I have. What do you believe about the life of Muhammad?

Muhammad Rasheed
- You've never read the Qur'an, Kirb. You only skim the cherry-picked verses on your anti-Islam websites.

Kirb Brimstone - Oh I have read the Quran and it's poorly written gibberish. The only good stuff is the stuff copied from Jewish and Christian texts.

Muhammad Rasheed - No, you haven't. You've ask too many questions over the years that prove you have never read it. Or are you now trying to convince me you actually had the patience to force yourself through an entire text of incomprehensible gibberish? lol You can't even force yourself to answer my questions in these threads, so please.



Kirb Brimstone - M. Rasheed wrote: "You can't even force yourself to answer my questions in these threads"

Bwahhahaha.. You are following the example of Muhammad indeed.

I have asked no less than 6 questions and you've answered none..

Muhammad Rasheed - You asked me if I thought camel pee was good for me. I rejected any and everything about it, but you acted confused and asked the same question over and over again.

This is quality of discussion I've come to expect from you.

Kirb Brimstone - Yeah I know Muhammad You follow the Hadith you like

Muhammad Rasheed - If by "hadith I like" you mean "hadith that don't conflict with the message God revealed to the prophet" then you would be correct.

Kirb Brimstone - You need Hadith to understand the Quran. So how do you choose what you follow... answer anything that doesn't embarrass my western sensibilities.

Muhammad Rasheed - Kirb wrote: "The Quran reads like gibberish."

Why do you assume I share your opinion of that? If I did I wouldn't be Muslim. I subscribe to Islam precisely because I believe what God said in the Qur'an.

btw, I'm not likely to willingly coddle western sensibilities. I suggest you NOT show me your tender underbelly.

Kirb Brimstone - Sunnis would say you are not a real Muslim. How do you follow Sunnah?

Muhammad Rasheed - I've never claimed any sects. If you've read the Qur'an then you should know why.

Kirb Brimstone - Well why don't you lay it out.

Kirb Brimstone - DO YOU FOLLOW SUNNAH?

Muhammad Rasheed - God said: "Do not break your religion up into sects."
"Sunni" or "Shia" do not belong to me. They belong to those who've gone astray. I'm not interested in any sects per my Lord's command.

I'm certainly not going to be cornered into being into sects by someone like you. lol

Muhammad Rasheed - I believe in Allah, follow the Qur'an, and follow those hadith that align to the Qur'an in verse and/or spirit.

You unrepentant hellbound may have the rest.

Kirb Brimstone - Finally an answer.

M. Rasheed wrote: "I believe in Allah, follow the Qur'an"

Okay. So then you do follow the Quran.

How do you follow Surah 33:21?

Muhammad Rasheed - By following the hadith that align to the verse and/or spirit of the Qur'an, which matches the nature of the praise God heaped upon His messenger.

Kirb Brimstone - How do you know God heaped praise on Muhammad?

Muhammad Rasheed - Because God is doing it in the 33:21 verse you literally just referenced. lol

Kirb Brimstone - lol

Muhammad Rasheed - This is the quality of discussion I have come to expect of you. Did I mention that?

Kirb Brimstone - Circle complete.

Muhammad Rasheed - Are you trying to "get me" with a circular reasoning fallacy? You know you're supposed to be a subscriber to Abrahamic Religious tradition, too, right? That's the nature of that belief system. There's no getting around it in matters of faith.

Kirb Brimstone - You admit to circular reasoning? Sad.

Not Christian faith. Christian faith is not a blind faith.

We don't have to appeal to a fallacy to defend what we believe.

You will be without excuse on judgement day. Repent of your willful ignorance.

Kirb Brimstone - I pity you I truly do.

Muhammad Rasheed - Kirb wrote: "Christian faith is not a blind faith."

Then where is your definitive material scientific proof that the Christ Jesus was the literal 'son of God' and deity that died of his earthly form in a sacrifice to save humanity from their sins?

Kirb Brimstone - So I use other tools. To learn truth about the past I use the tools of history. (Something you are very confused about based on our past conversations)

To prove the existence of God I use the tools of Logic and Philosophy.

Trying prove the existence of God with science is like trying to weigh a duck with thermometer. Wrong tool.

That is why I have spent most of my life studying Christian Apologetics. (I kinda wish you would study Islamic apologetics)

But that isn't what YOU do. You argue in a circle. I believe the Quran because the Quran tells me to then you have this amazing confirmation bias that rules out anything you don't already believe.

That's isn't pious it's irrational. And being willingly (emphasis on willingly) irrational is not an excuse when you are before the LORD Jesus Christ's Judgement seat.

Muhammad Rasheed - Kirb wrote: "I pity you I truly do."

I have no idea what that means when you say it. I don't even know how I should interpret it.

Kirb wrote: "Now I know you don't listen to anything I've said for teh past decade we've interacted."

Sure I have. That's how I know you are full of crap. You're the one that doesn't listen to me and my argument, hence this asinine 'hadith' angle you're taking in this thread. I've told you a hundred times what my position is about the hadith, yet you continuously try to MAKE me take on someone else's position so that your pre-packaged, canned "How to minister to a Mooslem" script will work.

Kirb Brimstone - M. Rasheed wrote: "definitive material scientific proof that the Christ Jesus was the literal 'son of God"

Now I know you don't listen to anything I've said for the past decade we've interacted. C'mon Muhammad you know I don't subscribe to scientism. I

Science isn't the only methodology to discover truth. Science can only answer questions about nature and the physical.

Your question is supernatural and metaphysical.

Let me drop some WLC on you:  Does science prove everything?

Muhammad Rasheed - Kirb wrote: "(I kinda wish you would study Islamic apologetics)"

No thanks. I don't need someone else's problematic canned argument to defend my faith. That body of traditionalism literature is even more problematic than the hadith, and only gets us further and further from the revealed truth of scripture. I suggest you leave that mess alone, purge your mind of it, and study scripture for real to show yourself approved.

Kirb Brimstone - M. Rasheed wrote: "I don't need someone else's problematic canned argument to defend my faith."

Yeah you'd rather simply believe something just to believe it.

You will have no excuse when Judgement day comes You willingly follow lies.

Muhammad Rasheed - Kirb wrote: "Trying prove the existence of God with science is like trying to weigh a duck with thermometer."

lol Agreed. For me I would never try to prove God's existence.

Kirb wrote: "Yeah you'd rather simply believe something just to believe it."

The requirement of Abraham's God is that we believe. That we have faith, and behave in the world according to that belief. If that is what my Lord requires in order for me to be saved, then who are you, O Pauline Christian, to seek to impotently guilt me for doing so?

Kirb Brimstone - Muhammad misquoted me... Kirb wrote: "Trying prove the existence of God with science is like trying to weigh a duck with thermometer."

M. Rasheed wrote: "lol Agreed. For me I would never try to prove God's existence."

I never said trying to prove God's existence is misguided or something I don't do. I did say trying to prove God's existence with Science is misguided and that science isn't the only way to discover truth.

SMH. People read this you know?

Kirb Brimstone - [anti-Islam Spam]

Muhammad Rasheed - I said, "For me."

Muhammad Rasheed - I'm the one saying trying to prove God is misguided based on God's requirements for those who believe.

Kirb Brimstone - M. Rasheed wrote: "I'm the one saying trying to prove God is misguided based on God's requirements for those who believe."

M. Rasheed wrote: "based on God's requirements for those who believe."

How do you know what God's requirements are?

Let me guess...

Muhammad Rasheed - You don't have to guess. As a believer in Abraham's God I use the Word of God to find out what God's requirements are for His Creation in the usual fashion.

Kirb Brimstone - How do you know what the word of God is?

Muhammad Rasheed - The scripture preached by the prophets is/was the Word of God.

Kirb Brimstone - How do you know what the word of God is?

Muhammad Rasheed - I can tell by the way you argue that you've allowed atheists to beat you up, so you've taken on their Godless argument style for yourself.

Didn't I already admit that the 'circular reasoning' fallacy is just a part of faith-based arguments? Why are you trying to corner me into one again when I already said it doesn't mean anything to me? I'm a believer who has faith that God is real, His books are real, his prophets are real and the unseen spirit is real. Those beliefs represent the definitive Truth. I can't stop making circular reasoning arguments by linking lesser truths back to them, and I really don't mind it either.

Muhammad Rasheed - Anyway, I know what the Word of God is because God said it was His Word and I am to believe in it in order to be saved.

So I do. I believe God.

Kirb Brimstone - No Answer. You have chosen to be irrational and can't defend your faith.

Not only is Islams defeat public but my God has gotten you to archive the arguments for me.

Make sure to add this to the collection. I like to send people who are on the fence to read our debates.

Muhammad Rasheed - lol I did answer your question, Kirb.

I defend my faith all the time.

Kirb Brimstone - Uh-huh.

Muhammad Rasheed - Kirb wrote: "Not only is Islams defeat public..."
???

Explain.

Kirb Brimstone - [anti-Islam Spam]

Muhammad Rasheed - I think you're at your worst when you wear the atheist argument during these discussions. It's weird.

Kirb Brimstone - [anti-Islam Spam]

Muhammad Rasheed - Question: Why are you double posting so much in this thread? Is it a glitch in your phone?

Kirb Brimstone - THe answer to you question is [anti-Islam Spam] 

Muhammad Rasheed - I'm familiar with the anti-Islam propagandist David Wood. He has no answers for me and wouldn't know truth if it tongue kissed him. No thanks.

Kirb Brimstone - Are you? Are "familiar" with David Wood?

Muhammad Rasheed - Yup.

Kirb Brimstone - If this is the best Islam has to offer Islam's days are numbered. IT will fall to the waste side.

Muhammad Rasheed - In fact, I'm more familiar with him and his claptrap than you are with Islam.

Muhammad Rasheed - If what is the best?

Kirb Brimstone - M. Rasheed wrote: "In fact, I'm more familiar with him and his claptrap than you are with Islam."

I bet you are.

Man give me a call when you are ready to talk.

Muhammad Rasheed - I don't want to talk to you. Reading your foolishness is a big enough waste of time. lol

Kirb Brimstone - You afraid?

Muhammad Rasheed - Tell me why are you double posting so much here? Is this strategy or a mistake?

Kirb Brimstone - Afraid.

Muhammad Rasheed - Do you believe your arguments make more sense verbally?

Based on what?

Kirb Brimstone - Okay I am done. This has been fruitful. Those reading this see what Islam has to defend their beliefs.

Nothing.

Muhammad Rasheed - Perhaps this mysterious audience will be astute enough to notice that you didn't have any kind of offense in this thread. lol I didn't have anything to defend against. You asked me some questions, you pretended I didn't answer them because I didn't follow the script you needed me to (mostly because of my disdain for apologetic literature), and then you started babbling.

Then as a consolation prize, you wore your atheist hat to ding me with 'circular reasoning' points for your debate club folio.

What any of that had to do with "defending Islam" is beyond me, but it is typical of the quality of discussion I've come to expect from you. Your strength is consistency, I guess.

Kirb Brimstone - Let me ask you how do you pray?

Muhammad Rasheed - Are you asking me a question from a Christian missionary script designed for those "Qur'an Only" guys? I don't reject the entire body of hadith, Kirb, just the ones that conflict with the Word of God.

Kirb Brimstone - [anti-Islam Spam]

Kirb Brimstone - What is wrong with you? Ramadan got your blood sugar low? How many times do you pray?

Muhammad Rasheed - I don't understand why you are asking me what is wrong with me.

It seems like you're asking yet another canned question you found on an anti-Islam site that doesn't have anything to do with me. The fact that you are pursuing this particular line of questioning means you believe that I think that the hadith's guidance for Salat doesn't match what Allah says. Why would you think that? Do you think praying to God MORE than the bare minimum would somehow piss God off?

Kirb Brimstone - Your answers are canned as you cannot answer my questions. I will try again.

Do you believe Camel urine is good for you? If not why?

Muhammad Rasheed - That's not what 'canned' means. 'Canned' is when I Google your question and it pops up verbatim on a hundred different anti-Islam sites.

I am not an Arab. I have no reason to be over-fond of using camel urine as a household product which is part of local Arabian traditions.

Kirb Brimstone - Why do you avoid the question like the plague. Should I assume you do not have the answer?

Muhammad Rasheed - Was my answer too coded for you?

I have never given any thought as to whether camel urine is "good for me" or not. Ever.

Is that more direct?

Muhammad Rasheed - Do you still consider that avoiding the question? lol

Kirb Brimstone - Okay... now I am asking you. Do you think Camel Urine is good for stomach aches?

Muhammad Rasheed - I wouldn't think any kind of urine would be good for stomach aches personally. Just the thought of it is turning my stomach now.

Kirb Brimstone - Okay. How does the Hadith that says Camel urine is good for your stomach contradict the Quran?

[anti-Islam Spam]

Muhammad Rasheed - "How does it support the Qur'an's message?" is the real question.

How does drinking camel piss get me closer to paradise?

Muhammad Rasheed - The prophet Muhammad (pbuh) had a very specific job function, and God told the believers to follow the messenger's way of performing the religion for a very specific reason.

How does drinking camel piss (or using it as shampoo or whatever else) save me from hell?

Muhammad Rasheed - To question another type of hadith in that same vein, how would dressing like a desert-dwelling Arab, while in the winter of Detroit, Michigan, get me closer to paradise?

Muhammad Rasheed - My point is that -- even if every single ahadith really is authentic and exactly what it claims to be* as far as being the exact actions/sayings of the prophet -- they are not all relevant to my religion.

*they ain't.

Kirb Brimstone - You are in serious denial. According to you the sources about Mohammad's life can't be trusted.

You don't believe much of them. Muhammad is an obvious huckster. If you applied a 10th of the criticism you have for the Bible that the Quran affirms to the Quran you'd flee the lie that is Islam.

Kirb Brimstone - [anti-Islam Spam]

Kirb Brimstone - Paradise is far from you if you follow a false prophet.

Obviously false. Camel Urine doesn't heal your tummy. Why did Muhammad say it does?

Muhammad Rasheed - Why do you think the prophet said it did, Kirb?

Muhammad Rasheed - Kirb wrote: "You are in serious denial."

You lack the ability to critically think. A vital skill in scriptural analysis, hence the piss poor quality of your argument. 

Kirb wrote: "You don't believe much of them."

I believe in the ones that matter, that perform the function they were intended to. The ones that were fabricated to further some sultan's or mullah's agenda, not so much.

Muhammad Rasheed - Why don't you believe the other things in ahadith that the prophet was said to be?

Kirb Brimstone - Such as?

Muhammad Rasheed - That he was the final messenger of Abraham's God.

Kirb Brimstone - Why did Muhammad teach THIS?

Muhammad Rasheed - Why do you believe the prophet taught that, Kirb?

Kirb Brimstone - Multiply attested early sources claim he did.

If you look at Hadith tradition (even if the earliest texts that are considered merely as historical interest then you should believe he taught that. You can't dismiss the hadith because it embarrassed you or you think it contradicts the Quran ( I don't see how it does)

If you dismiss strong Hadith like the drinking camel urine and suckling your friends wife. How in the world do you follow the Sunnah of the Prophet?

So why did he teach this?

Muhammad Rasheed - Kirb, the hadith claim LOTS of things about what the prophet Muhammad said and/or did. If you're going to go on a crusade to convince me I should accept the hadith as definitively true and divinely infallible because you want to believe that, you know that makes you a Muslim, right?

The hadith say that Muhammad wasn't a false prophet, was indeed the messenger of Abraham's God, and the Qur'an is exactly what it claims to be. Do you believe all of this hadith material, too? Or do you just want to cherry-pick the parts you absorb into your anti-Islam confirmation bias?

Kirb Brimstone - M. Rasheed wrote: "Why do you believe the prophet taught that, Kirb?"

I answered: "Multiply attested early sources claim he did."

M. Rasheed wrote: "Kirb, the hadith claim LOTS of things [...] because you want to believe it, you know that makes you a Muslim, right?"

This is what I have to deal with. I answer your question and you ignore mine opting to attack a straw-man instead.

Muhammad Rasheed - Kirb wrote: "If you dismiss strong Hadith like the drinking camel urine..."

What are you using to determine whether a given hadith is "strong" or not, when the scholars themselves admit that no serious vetting took place to determine which hadith were actually strong or not? This is the main source of the hadith controversy.

Kirb wrote: "( I don't see how it does)"

lol You're the same guy who kept referring to the Qur'an as incomprehensible gibberish, right? So what does your admitting that you "don't see how it does" anything supposed to mean to me? If you deliberately take the time to attempt to manipulate me into not using the Qur'an in a discussion because you proudly proclaim you are far too ignorant to use it as a reference, why then would you spin on your heel to try to use the Qur'an as a reference and expect me to take you seriously?

Once you saw early on that the Qur'an point blank says Jesus was never crucified, you never attempted to read the Book again. That's the impression you give every time you mention the Qur'an, and why you've doubled-down on your attempts to throw the very NON-divine hadith in my face as if it would be good enough.

The ahadith are not the Qur'an, Kirb, and I have never been confused about that. God told us to follow the prophet's example in how the unlettered prophet performed the commands of scripture. Since you seem to be confused on that score, please note that the Qur'an tells the believers to be clean... to purify themselves. Since literally nothing about drinking or rubbing animal piss on one's self is even remotely 'purifying,' it should be obvious to anyone with at least half a brain that these so-called ahadith contradict both the verse (there are no camel urine references in the Qur'an) and spirit (rubbing thick, greasy animal piss on yourself is the polar opposite of being clean) of the Qur'an. Therefore the camel piss hadith are fabricated nonsense.

Period.

Muhammad Rasheed - Kirb wrote: "This is what I have to deal with."

Or you COULD choose to stop tagging me in this foolishness.

Muhammad Rasheed - Kirb wrote: "I answer your question and you ignore mine opting to attack a straw-man instead."

"Strawman?" You want me to accept the camel piss hadith as real, even though they do not align to the verse nor spirit of the Word of Allah, but you dismiss the ahadith's numerous confirmations that Muhammad ibn Abdullah really was the holy prophet of God. Why doesn't your same argument for believing the camel piss hadith apply to the far more important Al-Islam 101 hadith?

Because you're just playing silly games. And you're bad at it.

Kirb Brimstone - M. Rasheed wrote: "What are you using to determine whether a given hadith is 'strong'"

Islamic scholarship. What else? Circular logic? Blind faith?

No thanks.

Muhammad Rasheed - "Islamic scholarship" is notorious for having dropped the ball on a proper quality assurance methodology for vetting the hadith. That's a YUGE/BIGLY part of the hadith controversy from within the Islamic institutions themselves.

So how are you as a dedicated outsider justifying his insistence on how he believes a Muslim should be treating that body of problematic literature?

Muhammad Rasheed - And stop pretending Christians aren't using blind faith to accept the 'Jesus is divine' narrative, please. It's embarrassing.

Kirb Brimstone - Non-sense. Controverial hadith is weak hadith.

There are hadith that aren't controversial those are called strong Hadith.

Muhammad Rasheed - All hadith are controversial based on the early 'scholars' NOT using a proper methodology to determine whether the narratives they collected from the populace over those centuries were real or not. They never even tried later either, so the whole 'scholarship' around them is a sham.

That's why I only accept the ones that align in verse and/or spirit to the divine Al Qur'an, the undisputed Word of Allah. Which is what they should have used in the first place.

Kirb Brimstone - I definitely don't use blind faith to follow Christ. I wouldn't be a Christian if that was all they had to offer. It's why I am not a Muslim. You have no evidence to support the Quran.

As Paul suggested my evidence is in the Resurrection.

Islam has no such confidences.

This dialog with you strengthen a informed and evidence based faith in the true God and I pity your blind faith in deception.

Again. Willing Ignorance and irrationality is no excuse.

Kirb Brimstone - Pathetic.

Muhammad Rasheed - You definitely use blind faith and literally nothing else, and all your claims to the contrary are just the silly babbling foolishness I've come to expect from you.

Muhammad Rasheed - Why do you keep tagging me in this stuff?

Kirb Brimstone - 99.999999999999999999% of Islam would condemn you as a heritic.

But why should I be surprised can you agree on anything? [anti-Islam Spam]

Muhammad Rasheed - Appeal to the People logical fallacy.

Muhammad Rasheed - I don't give a damn what other people think. I study to show myself approved before my Lord. You may go on to hell with that 99.999999999999999999%.

Kirb Brimstone - M. Rasheed wrote: "Why do you keep tagging me in this stuff?"

I get good feedback from many who read our interaction.

You are angry and bitter. You can't be happy. I hope you abandon your folly and repent. Come to the true God.

Muhammad Rasheed - You should know that I think you are the biggest fool I've yet encountered on social media. Your own "feedback" is the metric I use to determine whether I'm on the right track or not in my research.

Stop tagging me in these, please. You are quite on my nerves.

Kirb Brimstone - Good. If it wakes you up then good.

Muhammad Rasheed - How would you "wake me up," Kirb, when everything you type is the committed babbling of the fool?

All you do is irritate me. You lack value in discourse, and are rapidly using up the last of the BSH nostalgia energy I keep you around for.

Muhammad Rasheed - Without fail, whenever a Black person calls me "angry and bitter" it means they are a white supremacy supporting coon.

Go away, please.



See Also:

The Return of Kirb Brimstone

RESPONSE - Former Muslim Turned Christian Conversion Tale

Breaking Down Liberalism with Charles Mills

Logos Your Way & I Goes Mine

The Truth About "Islamic" Slavery

Debunking the Debunking: Yes, the GOP is Racist

Deep Space Exploration - Planet #1818: Kirby's World

Killing Blacks For Fun & Profit

Kirb Drops the Gauntlet of Challenge! (again)

The Truth, the Half Truth & the Kirby

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