Saturday, July 16, 2016

Duel Beneath the Star & Crescent



Keith Howard - tell me, do you believe in the Book alone as guidance, or do you supplement and understand it with the Hadith of Muhammad?

M. Rasheed - The Qur'an (source of Truth) explains & guides the sayings/actions of the prophet within hadith. Y'all have it backwards.

Keith Howard
- then what does keeping a beard have to do with anything? Why beard a huge deal if it is supposed to be only what is in Quran. how can the sacred beard exclude half the population? Women cannot even grow a beard. It shouldn't matter if he had a beard.  anything he did should not matter if it was outside the Book. Hes called messenger, so his job was to only deliver a message..

do you agree with what I have said?

M. Rasheed - That's why Truth starts with the divine Qur'an; it should never start with hadith.

Keith Howard - This is a good start.

M. Rasheed - lol A "good start" to what, Keith? This is my religion.

Keith Howard - 31:6; And of the people is he who buys the amusing/distractive speech to mislead from the way of Allah 

Keith Howard - See how, the Muslims will hear a verse, and, proceed to the Hadith as if they have not heard it.

Keith Howard - to reject a verse after it has already been revealed to them is what a Kafir actually is. to reject them not simply be unaware

hope you will be able see this and stay with me on the same page here..

M. Rasheed - The Qur'an is the infallible Word of God. The hadith are the compiled memories and opinions of mere men.

It is wrong to uphold the hadith over the Qur'an in any way. The believer gives the Qur'an the benefit of the doubt, and gives the hadith intense scrutiny, cross-referencing, and criticism if it does not align to God's commands.

This should be common sense, and it is certainly my own approach to the material as a Muslim.

M. Rasheed - So if this reflects what your above expressed summary is, then we are on the same page.

Keith Howard - yes! The way I see it is.. Muhammad is mentioned in the Book a total of 4 times. So it's necessary to belive he was a Prophet.

M. Rasheed - I am commanded to believe Muhammad was the final prophet-messenger by the One God Himself. There is no question.

Keith Howard - yes. It is the Muslim obsession with his personal life that is what is misleading them.

Keith Howard - Note that, the name of the Book is Alkitab=the Book. AlQuran=the Reading. Not sure if you knew this.

Keith Howard - the Quran is the reading of the Book but not the Book itself... the Muslims have managed to obfuscate the simplest terminology, but it's really important to know the difference. in order to understand things clearly when the Book is mentioned.

Keith Howard - But that's as far as it should go.

M. Rasheed ‏- Please hurry to your point.

M. Rasheed - The Qur'an is both a Book and a Recitation of the verses aloud. I cannot imagine an argument from a disbeliever that would be so profound as to also be hinged upon the nuance between the two. I am eager to see your point.

M. Rasheed ‏- My potential anger at the probable complete waste of time is hinged upon the strength of your hypothesis. #NoPressure  lol

Keith Howard - yes reading or recitation .. both sufficient translations.. that Quran comes from the tongue while the Book is the message.  But knowing this, the Book is called the Book. Look at what our Lord has said about the Book. 6:83-89

Keith Howard - 17 Prophets are being mentioned. And it's being said they have been given............ The Book... Not Books, but The Book. A single book.. The Book..

M. Rasheed - Yes, God's message to mankind, preached by His messengers is as follows: "Believe in the One God, do good, reject evil deeds, repent when you mess up, beware the Judgment Day."

The extra details, that often varied from community to community, fleshed out the local flavor of the versions.

M. Rasheed ‏- But the above are the core tenets of the message of God to us.  That is "The Book."

Still waiting for you to get to your point. Is it your intention to annoy me?  You must know that your proud & numerous Trump2016 posts do not invite warmth & trust.

Keith Howard - look again.. sleep on it if you usually sleep at this time.. are you usally asleep during this time?


Keith Howard - a single book was given to all.. it's the eternal Book. See it for what it is. 

And it's not good to correlate my intent with my politics choices. I'm with Trump because what he says makes sense to me.  And liberals just get on my nerves. but regardless I will let you go because it's pretty late. we can continue this thread later

M. Rasheed - These two points are not irrelevant here, considering what makes sense to you does not make sense to me.

I'm up. I have a lot of work to do, so I have these social media windows open anyway. Just get to your point, please.

Keith Howard - the Muslims have deviated from the Ayat. What they follow is not surrender to Allah but surrender to the lies of evil people

M. Rasheed - lol This is a case in point of our fundamental world view differences. Naturally I consider this a lie from the Pit of hell.

Keith Howard - I wish it were a lie, but unfortunately the majority Muslims only read it for blessings...


M. Rasheed ‏- What the majority of believers do on their individual walks of understanding does not concern me.

Keith Howard - this sounds crazy to the avg. Muslims as they are from birth trained to deviate. But fighting them is my Lords decree.  Here I give you the reason as to why I chose to engage you. This is the true fighting. Of the nafs


M. Rasheed - I accept your Duel Challenge with enthusiasm, Keith. En garde.

Keith Howard - our Lord has ordered us to fight them, to kill them (spiritually) Even though we may hate it.

M. Rasheed - A battle of the spirit realms is out of our lane. We do our part by staying on the Path of God; then we thwart the evil one.

Keith Howard - I am not a huge fan of cartoons man, but I'm not picking on the petty issues..

M. Rasheed - All of these items that make up our personal ideologies are relevant as to the mechanics of how we think.  Both your political choices and your rejection of Islam are major components of our fundamental world views.

Keith Howard - it is not a rejection of Islam but rather a rejection of what the Muslims have turned it into with the help of the Satan...

M. Rasheed ‏- On a high-level concept I recognize items like that on my own in the body.  Whether our separate insights correlate or not we'll discover during the meat of the duel.

Keith Howard - theres certainly some truth in that statement. incorrect as a whole. brain is the most complex object known in the universe.

Keith Howard - this is the true meaning of the famous verse "Kill them wherever he find them". Killing somebody's misled spirit w the Book.  rather thier soul. Aplolgies. Difference between spirit and soul. The deviant soul is what is must be killed.

M. Rasheed - The true meaning of that verse was in reference to purging the Holy City of the unclean once the Muslims won the war.

Keith Howard - you are looking at verses through a historical context.The commands are not historical for only one time. They are continuous

M. Rasheed - The Holy City will be cleaned of pagan & Godless filth for all time. The historical context remains fast.

M. Rasheed ‏- People 'kill' their own souls by committing themselves to disbelief in the One who made them. Our job is not to kill people just because they disbelieve. There is no compulsion in religion.  But the unclean are certainly not allowed near the House.

Keith Howard - I could care less what people do so long as they don't commit a crime against our Creator. I don't want to come off as police

M. Rasheed - We don't have the authority to police their walk in their deen; there is no compulsion in religion.

Keith Howard - this is true. I agree. but we must, if anything, try to Atleast show the way to Guidance. The rest is up to Allah.  it is the true Sunnah all messengers. To read the Ayat to the people. To relay the message. That is Al-Quran.

M. Rasheed - Agree. As in the example of the prophets, our sole duty to others is to enable them to hear the message.  Whether they accept or not is on them, to answer to God for in the end.

Keith Howard - my point is the same Book has been given to all prophets. The first being upon him be peace our Father Abraham (Ibraheem).

M. Rasheed - Adam the patriarch was the first human being, as well as the first prophet-messenger.

Keith Howard - yes, but he was not a prophet. He did not recieve the Book. But was given the Ruh (Spirit) of Ayat

M. Rasheed ‏- God said point blank that Muhammad was indeed a member of the brotherhood of messengers.  God confirmed that Muhammad did receive the message, and preached it to his people per requirement.

Keith Howard - I was referring to Adam. Yes Muhammad is mentioned as messenger and seal of prophets. No argument there

Keith Howard - evil people who accomplished thier goal to mislead & confuse the Muslims. And they make tafarruq (distinction) between msngers

M. Rasheed - I make no distinction between the messengers. You're debating with ME, not Sheikh Aboo-boo.  On the Day of Judgment, no one is going to ask me anything about any fitwas, or rulings, or whatever.

Keith Howard - that is absolutely correct. We will all be judged by a single Criterion. The Furqan. It is the Book. we will not be judged on how well we were able to copy Muhammad. This is what the Muslims are doing that keeps them from Allah.  to obey the messenger is to obey all messengers in that we must adhere to the message they are relaying. The message are Ayat not take any Hadith as guidance except the Hadith of our Lord in the Book. What the Muslims do is Shirk my Br.  they have asscociated the Hadith of Muhammad with Allah. That is the definition of Shirk.. And it is the worst crime possible

M. Rasheed - I guess it depends on what you mean by "associate." As you know, we must go through the messengers to know God.  That's what they are for.  God commanded us to follow them so we will be taught correctly, and in obeying that command, we do not commit shirk.

Keith Howard - this is not how God has told us we must know him by. we know of Him through his signs (Ayat). prophets job was to deliver them

M. Rasheed - Did not the prophets explain the nature of the signs of Allah? This is part of the wisdom they imparted to us.

Keith Howard - you are going to kill me again on these "semantics" but a prophet is one who recieves the message. messenger relays it.

M. Rasheed - lol Both the angel and the human prophet were "messengers." Their role specifics differed because of their species nature.

M. Rasheed - You'll only get so many of those btw, before I end the refrain with the thrust home.  ;)

Keith Howard - he said to obey them, and that they are only here to notify us of the message.prophet says obey the Book, that is how we obey.

M. Rasheed - God said to obey Him (Book) and this prophet (his example). Naturally his example would reflect what's in the Book.  So I would study the Book, and if I wanted a guide to figure out the practical application, then I would seek the prophet.

Keith Howard - 3:7 The Muhkam (Clear) Ayat are the mother of the Book.  They are the decrees of God simple to follow.


Keith Howard - Either we must do it, or we cant . There are the simple rules God has made clear for us. There is brilliance in its simplicity

Keith Howard - the addition of extra Hadith not only convoluted His message but has completely changed it. Ayat don't require ornamentation

M. Rasheed - The rise of a perverted priest class of "scholars" are responsible for the superfluous and very wrong hadith additions.

M. Rasheed - We either obey or refuse to do it. God would never put an "I can't" item on our plates. He knows that of which His creation is capable.

Keith Howard - there is hope for an intelligent person such as yourself to come out from the darkness.

M. Rasheed - If by "darkness" you mean "Al-Islam," I'll refer you to my "Pit of hell" comment above. Remember you plan to vote for Trump.

Keith Howard - Islam means peace,  muslim simply means submitter/one who surrenders. it is not a fixed term. one can submit to a number of things. The religion that is mentioned in the book is called Millat-e-Ibraheem. The religion of Abraham. Islam is peace and it is deen.  Millat means religion. Deen means judgement/descision. "Verily the descison of Allah is Peace".  But again you see how the terminology has been turned on its head. the work of the Satan. He is the great deceiver..

M. Rasheed ‏- I am not likely to side with you over what appears to be loose-lipped semantics. Speak of more profound matters!

Keith Howard - its important semantics. these are words God chose to use in certain ways, in certain places. Wording is not a trivial matter.  not a trivial matter when it is the word of God. so it is of great importance to acknowledge these differences

M. Rasheed - There's a difference between mismanaging definitions, manipulating with synonyms, and reinterpreting from a doctrinal view.

Keith Howard - and as for synonyms, what I showed before were not synonyms but rather multiple meanings that happen to be synonyms.

M. Rasheed ‏- This is an example of the "double-talk" of the professional grifter. Please bring your A-Game or be ran through with steel.

Keith Howard - go ahead then. try it yourself. insert any of the given translations above and see if it does anything to change the meaning.

Keith Howard - the reason I even highlighted this in the first place was because it usally translated as idle talk.

M. Rasheed - Ah! And for good reason! And what brilliant fellow labeled it that? I would like to shake his hand as an admirable mind!

M. Rasheed - The Big Picture analysis of what my Lord requires is quite enough to achieve the Ultimate Prize, readily available for all.  Should I then be expected to -- against my better judgment as a believer -- dig around willy-nilly in cracks & crevasses, searching for imaginary clues pointed at by an over-vain outsider of my faith? Please be reasonable.

Keith Howard - to obey the messenger is to obey all messengers in that we must adhere to the message they are relaying. The message are Ayat

M. Rasheed - Abraham is mentioned again & again because Muhammad's uncompromising monotheism, that he came to independently, matched that of the Semite patriarch who also came to the same conclusion. Both did this before receiving prophethood.

M. Rasheed - The messengers' job was to instruct us in scripture & wisdom, and demonstrate the proper way to walk out the Word.  Muhammad is the most recent, and only one of the messengers that we have that data for.  Having an idea of how he specifically performed a command from God, who said he was sublime in this regard, is valuable.  I may not necessarily wish to EXACTLY ape the way a 7th century Arab performed a task, but it would be a good general guide.

Keith Howard - When God blew the Ruh into Adam, and asked all to bow to this Ruh, Satan created a diversion due to what they were made of.. (Fire Vs. Clay) but that was not the point. The point was to bow to God's spirit. But Satan is the master of diversion.

M. Rasheed - God commanded the denizens of paradise to bow to this new creation, because he had the potential to lead them all.

Keith Howard - not true. we both know it is only permissible to bow to one thing. the rules have not been changed. We bow to God's Ruh.  the Ruh meaning the spirit of God. The spirit of God that is contained within the Ayat (signs). That is what we bow to.

Keith Howard - God blew his Spirit into Adam and told all to bow to this spirit. what you have said is made-up by somebody who is a deceiver

M. Rasheed - lol What I said is my own understanding based on study of the material provided in the Book.

M. Rasheed - Do you not believe the ancient unseen beings who populated paradise before our creation had the spirit of Allah within them?  Of course they did. But they were made of light and cosmic flame, and Iblis' haughtiness was based on a form of racism.  To him it did not matter that we all shared the spirit of Allah within; he felt he should rule because of his surface glow.

M. Rasheed - The abstract version of the story as we both understand it is close enough not to cause any substantial conflict.

Keith Howard - I think it is. there are multiple versions of this story but only one is given in the Book. That is the one that is correct.

M. Rasheed - Our different nuanced ways of expressing the story contain items from our worldviews not present within the text itself.

M. Rasheed - A direct command from God makes anything possible as long as we do it in obedience alone.

Keith Howard - do you really think God's command would go against his eternal words, though?

M. Rasheed - The nature of worship is obedience to whatsoever the Omnipotent Supreme Being commands. I cannot second guess His Mind!  I either choose to believe He is what He is, or I do not. Who am I to say what He REALLY meant? My job is to surrender.  We are bowing in submission to the Supreme Creator, as HE so commanded us to prostrate to Him.

Keith Howard - I think you are referring to Gods declaration to make man the vicegerebt . This declaration is seperate from command to bow.  they are 2 different things.

M. Rasheed - There is no reason to believe that is true. Your justification for this belief of yours will need to be strong indeed. Go.

Keith Howard - there are several distinct events that happenned. The first was the declaration of a Khalifa on Earth. Then Adam was taught the names of all things. Then God ordered Adam to inform the Angels of their names. The events were not simultaneous. After that, God blew his spirit into Adam. Then, He ordered all to bow to Adam. All bowed except Iblis.. and He says in 2:34: "They prostrated except Iblees.. and he became of the rejectors (Kafireen)". 

M. Rasheed - Right. Because it didn't matter what they thought or reasoned. Their job was to obey.

Keith Howard - He was kafir because he reject the Ayat (the spirit) Allah blew i to Adam. How is it possible he could have been "disbeliever"

M. Rasheed - God imparted the spirit into Adam to bring him to life, as He performed for all living things. Adam was not unique in this.  The adversary's refusal to obey the command of Allah meant that he rejected Allah's Authority to command. That was blatant disbelief.

Keith Howard - ... a disbeliever in Allah while he is aware of Allah and refused the order to bow? No, he was a rejector. He rejected prostration.

M. Rasheed ‏- He rejected the superior status of Allah, rejected His place on top of the rank order. It was a clear act of disbelief.  In his defiance, he no longer believed God was who He was.

Keith Howard - this understanding is fine. But now let's look at the excuse he gave. The excuse about fire vs. clay.  his excuse had absolutely nothing to do with anything that was going on. It was a shift in focus. A diversion. An illustration in the nature of the satan. A diverter who attempts to shift the focus away from God. And put focus on other things. that was the whole point of going though a story we both knew already. It was about the shift of focus from the core issue; that is the satan's tactic. he has shifted the focus of the Muslims away from God. Now see how they have abandoned the Book.

M. Rasheed ‏- The tactic was based on what he himself believed in his arrogance to be true.

M. Rasheed - That his inflated vanities over what he valued were superior to the Majesty of his Lord. This proved his undoing.

Keith Howard - whether or not he belives it. Can you Atleast see how it was a diversion from the  situation, which he rejected/disbelieved.

M. Rasheed - It is all one. The fool rejected the command of its Lord, due to a misplaced sense of entitlement, and lost his Mansion.

M. Rasheed - We both agree to this, so it would appear.

Keith Howard - the superiority of fire over clay has nothing to do with prostration on the order of God.

M. Rasheed - Precisely so.

Keith Howard - perfect!! you finally understood what I was trying to say.  so you see how satan will "insert" things that are irrelevant into a situation in order to obscure the underlying reality.

M. Rasheed ‏- lol I'm no longer sure we are on the same page on this issue, since the problem wasn't of insertion so much as its tantrum.

M. Rasheed - It was rank entitlement-based envy responsible for the creature's rebellion. Inserting "blah, blah, blah" misses the mark.

Keith Howard - the insertion could have come in the form of a tantrum. I don't claim to know "why" he said that. But it is an insertion. regardless if it was intentional or not. But it is the result of the Satan's being. It's what he does

M. Rasheed - Negative. Your idiosyncrasy crosses the line into obsessive compulsion! You must reign it in for proper balance!

Keith Howard - it is the perspective my man. Look at the entire situation. Regardless of Satans reasoning the result was an irrelevant excuse

M. Rasheed ‏- The entire situation had disobedience to the Supreme Being as its root cause. "Word insertion" is a personal doctrine item.

Keith Howard - regardless of the reason he disobeyed. the reason given was nonsense. it doesn't make sense and has no relevance to the event.  if we are aware of  this, we can pick up on his behavioral patterns. hence the insertion of nonexistent ornamentation. doesn't this make sense to you?

Keith Howard - just-connect-the-dots

Keith Howard - it is this exact nature of satan that has caused the muslims to deviate as it was when he gave the excuse of fire/clay.  this was the simple point I was trying to make by going through all of that.  to end I simply say that satan is a great deciver. He will make you focus on a mosquito while your head is in the guillotine.  

M. Rasheed - True. Wealth hoarding and power grabs are small compared to the Eternal Bliss of Paradise. It is a poor trade indeed.

Keith Howard - if you agree with me on the nature of satan, how he operates, then i would say this is progress in the right direction.

M. Rasheed - We can agree that the beast is evil, & seeks to lure as many of us as it can into hell with it, with seductive toys & folly.

Keith Howard - "and who has better judgement that this who Sumbit... and follow the religion of Abraham". if it means the same exact thing don't you think it should be the same word? No, but you see how they have lied about God.

M. Rasheed - This is in the category of "manipulating with synonyms," and does you little credit.  This is of the quality of "preaching" I expect from the Christian pulpit, and find it wanting in substance. Will such as this continue to be what I can expect from the strength of your sword arm? I'll admit to disappointment.

Keith Howard - It has just not pierced your heart, yet.

M. Rasheed ‏- lol Alas, synonym manipulations are in the realm of the immature category of "milk," and cannot pierce the heart of adults.

Keith Howard - though the meanings of specific words have been changed to distort the meaning entirely. 

M. Rasheed - I fail to see how the meaning has changed at all. Are we not agreed on the high-concept level message of the Lord?

Keith Howard - my attempt to revert back to the original meanings of words to get the original msg get the label of "synonyms manipulations".  

M. Rasheed - At this point I can only suggest that you hastily move forward to the next level of your point, so your audience can spend less time staring out the window towards the playground.

Keith Howard - you can see there are many parenthetical insertions, changes of word meanings, and other interpolations in our translations  we must disregard all interpolations. 

M. Rasheed - Meh. This fails to move me for reasons already stated. What else do you have?

Keith Howard - I want the pure message of God not a man's ornamentation of it.

Keith Howard - and then see how the satan uses you to accuse me of synonym manipulation to distract from the purpose of getting the message!!

M. Rasheed - *snort* Your technique screams at me like a blaring noise from the experience of countless duels before this one.  I hardly need the fiend's assistance to spy it out.

Keith Howard - can you not see that is exactly what is happening?? Right now. At this moment satan attempts to change the focus.

M. Rasheed - I'm waiting for your focus to wrap around more profound matters so I may clash my blade upon the foe I was hoping you'd be

Keith Howard - we have to keep the focus on the core issue, & that is Allah & the Spirit. If we go too far down some tangent we will get lost

M. Rasheed - Here, here! Agreed, double agreed, and agreed again! Let's have your A-Game wot? There's a show!

M. Rasheed - What you are looking at is the inexact match up when comparing the two languages. The parenthetical inserts are merely the filling in of gaps to keep the English from reading like a retarded robot wrote it.  

Your over-sensitivity to it, although I do choose to interpret as charming, is still an idiosyncrasy I cannot share.

Keith Howard - Youre unaware of what is going on. Look at how the word (sin) is inserted, when it does not exist


M. Rasheed - The context of the verse is true based on the scholar's translation. I'll admit bafflement at the force of your nitpick. It is indeed a great sin to fight during the sacred month; God commanded us NOT to do it after-all. To violate the command of God is the very definition of "sin!"

Keith Howard - there is no word sin. This is saying that fighting in the sacred month is actually better. Fighting meaning the way we are now.  that is what is meant by fighting. And it is actually better in the sacred month. Not a sin. Complete change in the meaning .!

M. Rasheed - Truly you have a dizzying intellect... lol

M. Rasheed ‏- The scholar's insertion of "sin" is for clarification. I for one welcome the effort.

Keith Howard - There need not be a name for this religion as is it more a state of surrender to God than a religion. But Islam (peace) is

M. Rasheed - *snif* Allah said specifically that Al-Islam is the religion He perfected for us. I for one choose to believe Him.

Keith Howard - you are confusing judgement with religion. The word deen means judgement!! Islam the descison be has made for us.  Millat is the Arabic word for religion. Not deen. Islam is deen not Millat

M. Rasheed - The context was clear to THIS believer. The Day of Judgment has not yet arrived for such an interpretation to make sense.  It would appear you enjoy stepping over the Ambrosia, to grab a handful of mere crumbs. Hard indeed you strive for this belly full of steel, sir.

Keith Howard - Relgion of Abraham is the true name of this religion, if it has a name. Islam (peace) is the judgement of God.

M. Rasheed - What labels we choose to use are conspicuously missing from the list that constitute what God defined as "righteousness."  Consequently, I once again would consider this more inconsequential synonym manipulating in the guise of "insight."  I find that such rhetoric lacks the awe-inspiring force & scope of deep insight into scriptural analysis.

Keith Howard - it is not possible for us to go further into things unless we have a clear understanding of what is fundamental first.

Keith Howard - I am trying to lay down only the basic terminology, concepts, and things that are necessary to understand the Book.

M. Rasheed - Are you? Because you certainly project a quite different impression. hahaha

Keith Howard - and this particular case, I am showing you whag God exactly calls this religion. Arrogant you want to call it something else.

M. Rasheed - I call it no less than what the Lord thy God called it, with its very specific list of tenets that make it up.

M. Rasheed ‏- Flashy synonym word games are what you consider the "fundamentals" of the faith? A sad thought indeed.  

Keith Howard - see how the Satan is shifting us from the core. The synonyms of the word "lahw" was not even the point of the image. but that these "lahw" hadith are what misleads from the way of Allah. That was the point and it is what this sign is saying.

M. Rasheed - You're preaching to the choir if your point is to get me to firmly place the hadith underneath the Qur'an in the rank order.

M. Rasheed - Perhaps you would enjoy at most being confined to the foyer of paradise, permanently delegated to coat duty?  

Keith Howard - to be completely honest I probably wouldn't mind that at all. Just a personal thought.

M. Rasheed - lol Well, certainly coat duty in heaven is infinitely superior to "Grand Poobah of Maintenance & Toilet Repair" in hell.

I heartily suggest you get your game up, and begin to chew on meat so you may sit at the big table then.  Better late than never as they say. Chop, Chop! Step lively!

Keith Howard - it remains that you can understand the core message of the verse perfectly regardless of which version of a word you go with

M. Rasheed - lol This is exactly the source of my impatience with synonym manipulations in the guise of "deep talk." Have a care.

M. Rasheed - Do not fight during the sacred months. To violate this command from God is a sin.

Keith Howard - if that's the case, then show me where He says that. Because it is clearly saying in this verse here that it's better to fight

M. Rasheed - In the meanwhile, put forth a justification as to why it would be a good thing to fight during the sacred months. lol

M. Rasheed - USA See - 5:2, 5:95 & 97, 2:197.

Keith Howard - I am going to read them & then get back to you.

M. Rasheed - As you like. Take your time.

M. Rasheed ‏- As an aside, I'll admit that I am enjoying this discussion immensely. I give you my hearty thanks.  May your example be a lesson to all in right conduct when arguing with a Muslim!

Keith Howard - thank you. I feel honored.  Indeed. Praise to Almighty.

*** INTERMISSION ***

Keith Howard - 5:2 Don't violate rites of God, sacred month, or animals, visitors of His House. don't hunt in ihram..


Keith Howard - don't be sinful/aggressive. don't transgress... I see nothing here about fighting, sir.

Keither Howard - 5:95 Don't hunt while in state of ihram.. or else do this.. See nothing on fighting again, sir.


Keith Howard - 5:97 Allah has created Kaaba, the sacred months, animals and plants.. Kaaba is place of standing..

Keith Howard - 2:197 Ihram makes Hajj obligatory. No sex or argument during the Hajj. There is nothing.. man


Keith Howard - I was actually pretty sure I would not find anything as there are no contradictions in the Book. None of these say that you cannot fight in the sacred month. It is talking about other things. Mostly the state of Ihram

M. Rasheed - So after returning from my well-earned meal break, I find that not only has my advice to bring your A-Game been ignored, it's been balled up, spit upon, and cast into the gutter.  It's difficult to imagine how such treatment can be the foundation of a future solid camaraderie.  Especially in so much as the advice was intended only to aid you.

M. Rasheed ‏- Anyway, what do we have here...? *pokes through your leavings with the tip of my sword*

M. Rasheed - So let me get this straight: For all your synonym fetish acrobatics, you really can't see the prohibition against fighting because you don't specifically see the word "fighting" in the texts?  You jest, surely.  The first clue is that the people are wearing the pilgrimage garb, Keith!  Did you think killing people in wild acts of aggression was the norm during the months of Hajj? I just noticed you also ignored my advice to "take your time." tsk.  You're asking ME to connect dots, when you left enough behind to make a 100'x100' stippling drawing?  Is this some kind of passive aggressive attempt to withdraw from the duel?  >:(

Keith Howard - no. I'm trying to point you to the Qiblah.! Qibla = Direction.

M. Rasheed - Can you not see that the message of the verses I provided show the following:

1.) Other than within the clear narrow rules allowing the hunting of game, there's to be NO KILLING.
2.) The time & place represented sanctuary, even for the enemy, who was not yet forbidden to be near the House.
3.) There was to always be right good conduct, with no aggression.
4.) Combined with the verse saying it is less bad to fight an enemy aggressor, than to allow the enemy to oppress provide all the proper "dots" to connect to the Lord's clear intention for us. At least it's clear to ME anyway.

Keith Howard - and also, you should be aware all killing mentioned in the Book refers to killing a soul with the truth.  there are many times where we are commanded to kill. but there is an Aya that explains to us how.  

"And do not kill the soul which Allah has forbidden, except with the Truth"(17:33).

"The Truth is from your Lord"(2:147).

Keith Howard - when Allah says kill we must kill, but we must do it in the way he tells us, and that is with Al-Haqq from the Lord, sir.  we are to kill souls (including our own) with the truth. that is how we kill.  so please don't take fighting/killing commands as call to violence. It is only a specific kind of killing we are to execute.  How to kill is in 17:33, and further, the Truth is further explained in 2:147.  and as far as the Ayat you sent me, none had anything to do with fighting in the sacred month. They are all about Hajj. I do belive there is a difference between "the sacred month" and "the sacred months", though. Theres no killing in the latter.  9:5 And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the Mushrikeen where you find them. (Again following killing of 17:33).  I am not sure what the "sacred months" but they are obviously different from "sacred month". due to the rules.  I generally take the sacred month as Ramadan, and "sacred months" I am unfortunatly completely ignorant. Maybe the Hajj idk

Keith Howard - like I said there is a difference between the sacred month (fighting allowed) and sacred months (no fighting). that's the conclusion I have come to. it is the only explanation for the discrepancy between 9:5 and 2:217.  There has to be some kind of difference just based on the quantity alone. I need to learn more on this matter

M. Rasheed - Considering the early Muslim community were in literal, real, active physical warfare with the worst enemy, who was actually trying to kill them ALL to the last man, I'll admit to genuine confusion as to some of the conclusions you've come to here at the end.

M. Rasheed - What also stands out are the holes in your knowledge base WHILE you are arguing with me over it. lol

Keith Howard - 9:5 "But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving & Merciful."

9:6 "And if any Mushriken seek your protection, then grant him protection so he may 'hear the words of Allah.'"

Note how all of this is said after the command to kill them. This could not be possible if they have been physically killed

M. Rasheed - If they are acting a fool and attack, but then back down and ask for forgiveness, then grant it to them. This is not hard.  The ones who died before they had a chance to back down and change?  Hellfire. Period.

Keith Howard - Reference back to 17:33. And then let them hear the words of Allah. Does it sound like a war? No it's killing souls with truth

M. Rasheed - It is 100% a war until THEY stop being the aggressor. Once they stop, then I will stop, and let there be Peace.  As a Muslim, my position in war is always from the defensive as I am commanded to be at Peace unless an aggressor disturbs that peace with violence/evil.

Keith Howard - And the Truth is from the Lord (2:147) & this is none other than the words of Allah.  see the connection between all these signs.. Killing, Souls, Truth, From the Lord, Words of Allah.. can you see the beauty?  its the beauty of simplicity my friend. This is the pure message.

M. Rasheed - Nay.  The clear message is right on top, without the need for all of your gruesome spinal distortions.  How would truth kill a soul? Truth revitalizes the soul. Only disbelief & lies destroy the soul.

M. Rasheed - Your version of the "simple message" seems determined to stray no further from synonym manipulation, and a paradoxical refusal to see relevant meaning within other related synonyms if you don't see a specific word in the text.

Keith Howard - well it appears there is no true consensus on the matter.


Keith Howard - you are constricting the Book to a single time period. This is not the case. The Book has been here since AS Ibraheem.

M. Rasheed - That specific revelation addressed a very specific historic event. You cannot separate the point of the verses from that.

M. Rasheed - I wanted to address another item I missed from the other day. You claimed that Adam was not a prophet. How could this be? He received direct instruction from his Lord and delivered it first to the angels, & second to his own descendants on Earth.  God taught Adam the technique for repenting in 2:37, a major part of the Book's message. So how was Adam not a prophet?

Keith Howard - On Adam: It is simply that the Book mentions a total of 18 men as prophets. Adam was not one of these mentioned.

M. Rasheed - No. That list didn't represent all prophets.  Nor was it supposed to. It represented some of the most well-known of them, and mentioned Muhammad in that company.



Keith Howard - True, there are Signs about war in the Book, but in those the word Harab = War is used. Not Qatal = Killing.

M. Rasheed - lol What kind of war would this be in which there is no killing? Nerf War™?  Flag football?

Keith Howard - Tawba says to disassociate from the Mushriks (associated something w Allah) And kill them (we are told how to kill in 17:33).

M. Rasheed - That’s the second time you’ve mentioned the “how to kill” line, but I’m not following.



Keith Howard - There is no evidence to back up your claim that these signs refer to a specific war, other than accepted lies.

M. Rasheed - So it is your position that the history of Islam in the prophet's lifetime never happened. Is that accurate?  That the pagan Meccans never tried to destroy them, causing them to flee to Medina? You think all of that is fiction?

Keith Howard - And Yes, specific topics are mentioned by name in the Book. It is a book of clarity not a book of implications, Mr. Rashid. "A Book whose verses are perfected and then presented in detail from Wise Acquainted" (11:1)

M. Rasheed - When that was the specific environment in which it was revealed? It's impossible for me to accept this view.

Keith Howard - and yes, a forbidden soul can be killed with the Truth. & every soul shall taste death.

M. Rasheed - Souls do not taste death, the flesh tastes death. Souls return to Allah until it's time to go back at resurrection.

Keith Howard -

M. Rasheed - This is clearly not to be taken literally. The soul is not of the terrestrial realm. The "tasting" is that it was present during the death trauma of the flesh, and felt a "taste" of the experience. The soul itself does not die, but lives on in the afterlife. It'll return to us upon the call of mankind's resurrection, like the analogy of Abraham's birds.

Keith Howard - I never said Adam was not a messenger, only that he is not listed as a prophet. Many messengers, 18 prophets.

M. Rasheed - One of their primary duties is to warn of the coming of Judgment Day. They were all prophets.

Keith Howard - Whether it happened or not is irrelevant for guidance. Just like a beard is not relevant. Not important.

Keith Howard - So maybe he was a prophet. I don't know. But it is not mentioned. That's all I'm saying here.

M. Rasheed - hahaha "Prophet" and "messenger" are used interchangeably in the Qur'an.

Keith Howard - wrong that is all contained in the message they giving. A prophet is somebody who has the Book sent down to them.

M. Rasheed - This is that "synonym manipulation" in action.

Keith Howard - Prophet = Given Book. Messenger = Confirms Book

See the difference described. Knowing the definitions of these terms is not synonyms manipulations. They are definitions.

M. Rasheed - "The Book" is the Word of the Qur'an, while "the wisdom" is the inspired practical application of how they performed it.  The fact that you stepped right over "the wisdom" that was clearly separate from the Book speaks volumes into your insights.

Keith Howard - this translation is not correct. Word for word it is: "And do not kill the soul forbidden by Allah except with the Truth".

M. Rasheed - That translation (a translation app...?) isn't coming over into English well, and is cumbersome & confusing to me.

Keith Howard - To require context to understand these signs communicates that Allah alone is not good enough for you. This is betrayal.

M. Rasheed - I disagree considering it was specifically revealed within a specific context. At least the translation should BE universal.

Keith Howard - note how I use other parts of the Book to understand what is in the Book. You go to the Hadith of Muhammad.

M. Rasheed - I do all three of these.  Allah told us numerous times to believe in Him, and follow that prophet. It behooves us to know his history and what he did.

Keith Howard - all the while you have admitted the superiority of the Book to those Hadith.

M. Rasheed - The Qur'an is superior. And I use that to judge the quality of the prophet's collected history.

Keith Howard - you're wasting you're time doing that. The Book is Mufassel (fully detailed).

M. Rasheed - The Qur'an isn't a history of Muhammad's life, yet it commands me to believe in God AND to follow that prophet.

Keith Howard - are you really telling me you can't understand that? the soul is forbidden. it is in a state of disgrace. do not kill it except with the truth. this sums to the command: use the Truth to kill the forbidden soul.

M. Rasheed - "The soul is forbidden" still doesn't make sense.  It sounds like a 'English as a 3rd language' person struggling to be understood. The translation I posted was unambiguous and crystal clear to me.

Keith Howard - 69:40-47 Obey the messengers words which are this Quran. See the evidence.



M. Rasheed - Without doubt, Muhammad's message was true! I'm commanded to follow the way he walked it out as the sublime example.

Keith Howard - If that is the case then we must disregard 17:33. Is that ok with you?

M. Rasheed - I must disregard Keith Howard's understanding of the verse. lol Because THAT'S the only conflict that I see here.

Keith Howard - 1/3 possible souls commands a person to sin. It's name is Amara and it is forbidden. The other 2 are ok to have. Those are the self-blaming soul, and the reassured soul.

Keith Howard - "God took a covenant from the Prophets saying, "I will Give you The Book and the wisdom.""(3:81) "Afterwards, a Messenger will come to Confirm what is with you"(3:81)

Keith Howard - Are you aware of 3 different types of souls mentioned in the Book? There are 3 of them. also.. I fail to see the truth in your accusation that I am "manipulating synonyms" to change the meaning? I told you before I see a word for what it is and stick to its definition. The definition does not change in other areas. how does one even "manipulate synonyms" to change the underlying meaning? a synonym itself is defined to be "a word or.... a phrase that means exactly or nearly the same as another word or phrase in the same language". I closed the door. I shut the door. There is no difference in the meaning of these 2 statements. God says that the primary causes of war are the Jews and unequal distribution of wealth. There is no such thing as a holy war.

Keith Howard - well there is a war between God and Believers themselves.. those who don't pay ribaa (increase).



M. Rasheed - If the very human messenger is involved, then it's definitely a physical war with sword & force.

Keith Howard - there's one example of a war without killing. 5:64 Another kind is caused by the Jews. Note it says that Allah resolves these wars not jihadis.



M. Rasheed - The Jews were trying to hype the tribes up to battle the Muslims, but Allah would stop it before it went anywhere.

Keith Howard - they Jews have been causing war continuously since the beginning. You are again restricting the message.

M. Rasheed - In what way, Keith?  How am I restricting it?  I'm aware that scripture is multilayered, but there should be a basic surface understanding on top. Yours lacks that.

Keith Howard - Just look and you can see this even happening today. Jews are causing wars!

M. Rasheed - That particular part of the revelation was specifically checking the evil of usury. There are plenty of other areas where He checks them over other mess. All combined, the Lord thy God let them know that He did indeed see them, and always has.  Their fury comes from the fact that He chastised them through the Arab. hahahaha

Keith Howard - the messenger must kill those who did not pay the ribaa? Show me where you got that from.

M. Rasheed - ??? No, the verse is telling the usurers to stop pressing on the people with their evil practices.  If they repent, they can keep the principle payments and walk away with that profit.  But if the usurers INSIST that the people MUST pay up the interest payments, then yes, they will eat steel.

Keith Howard - The soul itself is haraam. It is haraam to have a certain kind of the 3 souls. it is crystal clear in its incorrectness. maybe because the wars going on now have not been extinguished... -_____-

M. Rasheed - There were wars going on 1400 years ago that were able to get legs and weren't extinguished until they physically played out.

Keith Howard - But since there is no real messenger for them to oppose, God is no longer extinguishes it.

M. Rasheed - How would we know what wars God hasn't extinguished? I'm sure Israel would've gladly wanted to toss an atomic bomb.

Keith Howard - They have become a punishment. they are 2 different things. All prophets were messengers. Not all messengers are prophets. This is basic knowledge.

M. Rasheed - All messengers warned of the coming of the Day of Judgment. That's prophecy. That made them all "the prophets of God." That's the part that is the basic knowledge: BELIEF IN THE PROPHETS, and BELIEF IN THE LAST DAY.

Keith Howard - Jews are ordered to make war and enslave the people according to their Bible (Old Testament). they did it, are doing it, and will continue to do it, so long as they are Jews.

M. Rasheed -  God said they hide a lot of revelation, proclaimed messengers to be imposters, and made up stuff they subscribed to Allah. And they did it ALL the time. This was also a major source of their fury directed against the prophet and the Muslim community.

Keith Howard - We would have to assume that Jews are responsible for every single war that has ever happened. Then you'd be right. This sign specifically says it is the Jews who instigate war against Allah & the messenger. Other wars are just wars.

M. Rasheed - There were specific tribes of Jews that the prophet covenanted with when he moved to Medina. These were the "hypocrites." They broke the treaty in their envy and schemed against the Muslims with the pagan Meccan enemy.

Keith Howard - Yes, but the word "war" is used exclusively in this sign, for this specific thing, and is for those who believe. the word "war" is mentioned a total of 4 times. so this is not just one crime of many, but a really big one, sir.

M. Rasheed - I agree that the animosity of the Jews towards Muslims has carried over into the modern day, and they have kindled war. The reasons for it today are little different from what they were back then: They want a monopoly on the People of God role. They are resentful of who they consider "the gentile" also having claims on the Lord thy God favor. Somehow they feel this is their exclusive birthright, and believe God will pardon the wrongs they commit to achieve it.

Keith Howard - Another mention of war is 9:107-108.


M. Rasheed - That "mention" wasn't a command to fight, but a glimpse into the unseen. God revealed something that the prophet was not privy to behind the scenes, i.e., the schemes of the hypocrites.

Keith Howard - There are mosques that serve as bases for war against God. (there are a lot of them). The people in them are hypocrites. But again see how war is mentioned with no order to kill. The order is simply to not enter that mosque. See the three groups of people who are at war with God & the messenger are: believers (ribaa), hypocrites, & the Jews.

M. Rasheed - ??? Did you mean UNbelievers?

Keith Howard - and 5:33 show us the penalty for these people. No place else is war mentioned.


Keith Howard - killing (17:33), crucify (humiliating), loss of limbs, & exile. we cannot go against 17:33. I have to admit this might be the sole exception to killing. this one even days crucify and cut the limbs... I have no idea. But 17:33 says kill the forbidden soul with the Truth. have to ponder over this.

M. Rasheed -

M. Rasheed - God said He made life sacred, and we are only to take it if the cause is "just." So what are the just causes in which we are allowed to take life?
  1. For food/consumption
  2. For sacrifice ritual in Allah's name
  3. In defense to protect your own life from an aggressor
  4. To punish those who commit themselves to wickedness.
Keith Howard - I refuse to believe there is any "just" reason to end a life.

M. Rasheed - "Just" is anything that the One God allows us. It is He that determines the scope of morality.

Keith Howard - except some animals that exist for the specific purpose of eating them

M. Rasheed
- That's my number one bullet item.

Keith Howard - Same here... Just, or Truth. 1 word: Al-Haqq.

M. Rasheed - lol If God says it is allowed, then by default that makes it "just." We don't make that determination, He does.

Keith Howard
- can you see how one's entire approach to the Book can rest on the choice of meaning to single word. Amazing.

M. Rasheed
- To me, it rests on recognizing one's place in the rank order between Supreme Creator vs creation. Word choice often gives away how people see themselves, their levels of belief, and their management of abstract principle.

Keith Howard
- Al-Haqq, man. A word worthy of exploration..

Keith Howard
- let's take a moment to soak in the awesomeness.

                                        

Keith Howard - understanding of the message, rather, approach was the wrong word...semantics

M. Rasheed
- On the most basic level, one's understanding of the message is directly related to one's acceptance of the rank order. If I don't believe the Book is what it claims to be, then what I think I understand will be flawed.

Keith Howard - exactly.


Keith Howard - Hightime we end this duel on a good note. I will be back to fight you again soon.

M. Rasheed
- [salute] Have a great day! :)

Keith Howard - likewise. same to you.




*******AUDIENCE COMMENTS & CRITIQUE*******

John Justin Green - You treat Mr Howard the same. You use the same satanic tricks. It is clear you will never do anything different. There is no point in any exchange and this was a conclusion long ago. I am now for the first time intersted in the goodness of Islam due to Mr. Howard. I feel he is right and there are far to few real men of God. You will continue to hide from the message as you do. You divert from all effort to bring it out. You continue to focus on diversions being others motives and material concerns. Wealth rascism paradise etc. All these revolve around pleasure and possesions. This is not the point of the message. The common thread is not what you say. It is recognition and respect of God and the rights of men. These are the supernatural focus which makes us more than the material machines/nasty clever apes which we are otherwise. Pits of hell, a game, data, doing good, not quite aping messengers but comming close, Donald Trump... You can never get out of this material hall of mirrors you hide in until you stop assuming you are so perfectfully and always correct. The Book which you are refusing to see is the reality behind our metaphors which include all our words and writing. Get to the meta and try to avoid mistaking it for your own creation. Must be difficult being a childish cartoonist but hope is eternal.

M. Rasheed - John wrote: "You treat Mr Howard the same."

No, I don't. Did you notice that he hasn't called me a subhuman animal, or attacked me personally from a racist point of view as you have, therefore I had no reason to be mean/profane back to him in defense? Howard is actually able to challenge points in the ideology/doctrine, without making it a personal attack towards me. How novel! You and your ilk need to take detailed notes of his approach so that you are able to perform in public the way you only pretend to within the narrow sphere of your prejudiced delusions.

John wrote: "You use the same satanic tricks."

That means zero to me coming from you.

John wrote: "It is clear you will never do anything different."

My argument style is my own; I have no reason to change it as it belongs to me and no other. I've advised you several times to simply accept that fact and move on. I do not respect your opinion on literally anything, except for your very limited opinion of the works of Jack Vance. Every iota of unsolicited advice from you -- and anyone even remotely like you -- is promptly tossed violently into the trash. I also have access to a top-notch Recycling Program as well, but I hold no illusions as to the value of your counsel.

John wrote: "There is no point in any exchange and this was a conclusion long ago. I am now for the first time intersted in the goodness of Islam due to Mr. Howard."

You've long ago, and unapologetically, established yourself as my enemy because I dared express strong disapproval as to the treatment of non-whites from your pagan idol Sir Winston Churchill. Consequently you are predisposed to side with anyone in the role of my opponent. This much is clear, even if it is only subconscious from your view point.

John wrote: "I feel he is right..."

Based on what exactly, since this one has taken the time to earnestly study the Qur'an (albeit from his weird, cock-eyed perspective), while you still worship both Churchill and the Hebrew prophet-messenger?

John wrote: "...and there are far to few real men of God. You will continue to hide from the message as you do."

Meanwhile I follow the exact message God has laid out for us.

John wrote: "You divert from all effort to bring it out. You continue to focus on diversions being others motives and material concerns."

You yourself said there are few "real men of God." Should you be surprised to discover that all of you follow your material lusts instead of the Word? Well, shut up then.

John wrote: "Wealth rascism paradise etc. All these revolve around pleasure and possesions."

Obscene amounts of hoarded wealth & racism are the prize & fruit respectively of the European White Supremacist Ideology that has broken the world with conquest, hate, and evil in the last five centuries or so. Paradise is the Holy Eternal Reward offered by the One God Himself to those who believe in Him. It is quite disgusting that you would group the three together like that, which confirms the best practice of shunting any and everything that comes from you directly to the garbage heap.

John wrote: "This is not the point of the message. The common thread is not what you say. It is recognition and respect of God and the rights of men. These are the supernatural focus which makes us more than the material machines/nasty clever apes which we are otherwise."

The "rights of men" isn't even remotely supernatural; that's your pagan lust talking again. Our supernatural focus is to obey God, that's how you recognize & respect Him, by doing what He said. Striving in His cause is the tool to enable you to obey Him in practical application, and are not to be worshiped of themselves as you do. The tools are not the point... God alone is the point. Wake up.

John wrote: "The Book which you are refusing to see is the reality behind our metaphors which include all our words and writing."

Please stop pretending you know anything at all about the Book, since you only follow the so-called "St." Paul the False, and wouldn't know truth if if beat you to within an inch of your worthless, lying life.

John wrote: "Pits of hell, a game, data, doing good, not quite aping messengers but comming close, Donald Trump... You can never get out of this material hall of mirrors you hide in until you stop assuming you are so perfectfully and always correct."

PROVE I am not correct, filth. Don't just cowardly flap your arms about in a perpetual sideline tantrum! Draw. Your. Sword. Or do not, and stand there in whining impotence. It is all one to me as the outcome would be the same either way: With three feet of sharpened steel at home in your belly. Good day!

Khalil - Very interesting and civil discussion between Mr. Howard and Mr. Rasheed, highly unusual to see discussion on religion without emotions. Hats off to you guys.  --Peace

4 comments:

  1. You treat Mr Howard the same. You use the same satanic tricks. It is clear you will never do anything different. There is no point in any exchange and this was a conclusion long ago. I am now for the first time intersted in the goodness of Islam due to Mr. Howard. I feel he is right and there are far to few real men of God. You will continue to hide from the message as you do. You divert from all effort to bring it out. You continue to focus on diversions being others motives and material concerns. Wealth rascism paradise etc. All these revolve around pleasure and possesions. This is not the point of the message. The common thread is not what you say. It is recognition and respect of God and the rights of men. These are the supernatural focus which makes us more than the material machines/nasty clever apes which we are otherwise. Pits of hell, a game, data, doing good, not quite aping messengers but comming close, Donald Trump... You can never get out of this material hall of mirrors you hide in until you stop assuming you are so perfectfully and always correct. The Book which you are refusing to see is the reality behind our metaphors which include all our words and writing. Get to the meta and try to avoid mistaking it for your own creation. Must be difficult being a childish cartoonist but hope is eternal.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. John Justin Green wrote: "You treat Mr Howard the same."

      No, I don't. Did you notice that he hasn't called me a subhuman animal, or attacked me personally from a racist point of view as you have, therefore I had no reason to be mean/profane back to him in defense? Howard is actually able to challenge points in the ideology/doctrine, without making it a personal attack towards me. How novel! You and your ilk need to take detailed notes of his approach so that you are able to perform in public the way you only pretend to within the narrow sphere of your prejudiced delusions.

      John Justin Green wrote: "You use the same satanic tricks."

      That means zero to me coming from you.

      John Justin Green wrote: "It is clear you will never do anything different."

      My argument style is my own; I have no reason to change it as it belongs to me and no other. I've advised you several times to simply accept that fact and move on. I do not respect your opinion on literally anything, accept for your very limited opinion of the works of Jack Vance. Every iota of unsolicited advice from you -- and anyone even remotely like you -- is promptly tossed violently into the trash. I also have access to a top-notch Recycling Program as well, but I hold no illusions as to the value of your counsel.

      John Justin Green wrote: "There is no point in any exchange and this was a conclusion long ago. I am now for the first time intersted in the goodness of Islam due to Mr. Howard."

      You've long ago, and unapologetically, established yourself as my enemy because I dared express strong disapproval as to the treatment of non-whites from your pagan idol Sir Winston Churchill. Consequently you are predisposed to side with anyone in the role of my opponent. This much is clear, even if it is only subconscious from your view point.

      John Justin Green wrote: "I feel he is right..."

      Based on what exactly, since this one has taken the time to earnestly study the Qur'an (albeit from his weird, cock-eyed perspective), while you still worship both Churchill and the Hebrew prophet-messenger?

      John Justin Green wrote: "...and there are far to few real men of God. You will continue to hide from the message as you do."

      Meanwhile I follow the exact message God has laid out for us.

      John Justin Green wrote: "You divert from all effort to bring it out. You continue to focus on diversions being others motives and material concerns."

      You yourself said there are few "real men of God." Should you be surprised to discover that all of you follow your material lusts instead of the Word? Well, shut up then.

      Delete
    2. John Justin Green wrote: "Wealth rascism paradise etc. All these revolve around pleasure and possesions."

      Obscene amounts of hoarded wealth & racism are the prize & fruit respectively of the European White Supremacist Ideology that has broken the world with conquest, hate, and evil in the last five centuries or so. Paradise is the Holy Eternal Reward offered by the One God Himself to those who believe in Him. It is quite disgusting that you would group the three together like that, which confirms that the best practice of shunting any and everything that comes from you directly to the garbage heap.

      John Justin Green wrote: "This is not the point of the message. The common thread is not what you say. It is recognition and respect of God and the rights of men. These are the supernatural focus which makes us more than the material machines/nasty clever apes which we are otherwise."

      The "rights of men" isn't even remotely supernatural; that's your pagan lust talking again. Our supernatural focus is to obey God, that's how you recognize & respect Him, by doing what He said. Striving in His cause is the tool to enable you to obey Him in practical application, and are not to be worshiped of themselves as you do. The tools are not the point... God alone is the point. Wake up.

      John Justin Green wrote: "The Book which you are refusing to see is the reality behind our metaphors which include all our words and writing."

      Please stop pretending you know anything at all about the Book, since you only follow the so-called "St." Paul the False, and wouldn't know truth if if beat you to within an inch of your worthless, lying life.

      John Justin Green wrote: "Pits of hell, a game, data, doing good, not quite aping messengers but comming close, Donald Trump... You can never get out of this material hall of mirrors you hide in until you stop assuming you are so perfectfully and always correct."

      PROVE I am not correct, filth. Don't just cowardly flap your arms about in a perpetual sideline tantrum! Draw. Your. Sword. Or do not, and stand there in whining impotence. It is all one to me as the outcome would be the same either way: With three feet of sharpened steel at home in your belly. Good day!

      Delete
  2. Very interesting and civil discussion between Mr. Howard and Mr. Rasheed, highly unusual to see discussion on religion without emotions. Hats off to you guys.

    Peace
    Khalil

    ReplyDelete