Wednesday, April 15, 2015

Rebuilding a Community's Hope & Faith


Gary McCoy - Maybe if they used an unguarded liquor store as a polling place...


Bob Lang - I would imagine they don't care about actually voting for change.

John Richards - Well it's like this. Voting really isn't nearly as rewarding as looting and torching, and besides that, voting can be a really embarassing experience when you can't read.

Muhammad Rasheed - After decades of being preyed upon and abused by a corrupt system, they lost faith that anything they do will help.

Marc Sova - Pathetic.

Stilton Jarlsberg - There's nothing to steal in a voting booth.

Gerry Harris - You can round up all of the cattle in the world, but you'll never teach them math.

Brad Diller - HA!

Muhammad Rasheed - Gary assured me once that his friends were NOT a bunch of racists. After reading the comments here I'm starting to have a feeling of doubt...

Gary McCoy - Muhammad, I know you went to the Obama school of racial perceptions, but I never made any such comment to you, because it's not necessary. Please try not to fabricate when commenting on my posts.

Stilton Jarlsberg - Muhammad - You make a valid point that people in Ferguson may not have voted because they don't think it makes a difference (there's a lot of that all over the country these days). But at the same time, the rioters and looters in the picture above (and too many like it) weren't actually protesting Michael Brown's self-caused death - they were simply rioting and looting.

And here's a question: why did the Al Sharptons and Eric Holders desert the people of Ferguson when the story fell apart instead of trying to inspire the people to vote for change? My guess is because neither Sharpton nor Holder actually want such change.

Gerry Harris - Hey Stilton Jarlsberg, if things changed for the better the race hustlers would be out of a job. Sharpton doesn't want change, he wants publicity.

Muhammad Rasheed - What's a "race hustler?"

Gerry Harris - Reverend Al Sharpton. Reverend Jesse Jackson. Locally here is Reverend Emanuel Cleaver. None of these guys ever worked a day in their lives. See a pattern here Muhammad Rasheed? Cleaver is also a Congressman. These creeps make a living off of race hustling. Living from the collection plate and the public teat.

Muhammad Rasheed - Well, the pattern I see is in your demographic demonizing the anti-racism activists... people who stand up against injustices committed along race lines. I notice a consistent pattern in a very specific type of person, who holds onto a very specific ideology, that seems to hate it when people stand up against the traditional racist injustices of this country. 

I'll admit that I'm disappointed that you didn't actually define the term "race hustler." Here it functions as just a smearing hate term, with no actual meaning.

Gary McCoy - Since you're disappointed that I didn't define the term 'race hustler', allow me to do so: Barack Obama

Muhammad Rasheed - lol That's not how 'definitions' work, Gary. You know better (I know you're just trying to get a chuckle out of your "home boys"). Pretend that I don't frequent you all's watering holes, and don't share your ideologies and ways of seeing the world, so that you can't just assume I'll know precisely what you mean by tossing out a name.

Marc Sova - It's someone who fans the flames of racism when there there are barely sparks, if that.

Muhammad Rasheed - Thank you, Marc. If no one disagrees, then I will proceed as if that is the widely-accepted definition among you all's demographic, and these thread posters in particular.

Stilton Jarlsberg - @Muhammed… Just a quick reality check. When you look at the picture at the top of this post, do you REALLY see "people who stand up against injustices committed along race lines"? This is a sincere question - I'm curious.

Muhammad Rasheed - I find it a very odd question, to be honest.

Tell me, Stelton, when you look at the image at the top of the post, do you REALLY see Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson, as well as every single black person in Ferguson? If so, then I think we are 99% close to the reason for you all's racism displayed in this thread.

Muhammad Rasheed - btw, mine is also a sincere question. 

To answer yours: No, I see criminal opportunists of the usual sort that take advantage of chaotic situations. Do you think there were any from your side of the race line while those savage white college kids were tearing up those little towns because their sports team either won or lost (it didn't matter which one)?

Stilton Jarlsberg - Muhammed- I think the fact that you refused to answer my very basic question gets us 99% close to the reason that you shouldn't be calling anyone racist.

Stilton Jarlsberg - Good - we're on the same page about criminal opportunists of whatever race (college kids "gone wild" need to further their educations behind bars). 

To answer your question, I don't see "every single black person in Ferguson" in that image, but I most certainly DO see Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Louis Farrakhan, Eric Holder, Barack Obama and everyone else who called for demonstrations and retribution in the wake of a non-racial incident in which a thug attacked a police officer. The people I've named were all inciting people for either political or economic gain. That's why they're sometimes referred to as "race hustlers," "poverty pimps," or "the new plantation owners."

Debra Soucy Donze - Teach the Basics..to those that don't vote...where how when

Muhammad Rasheed - Gary McCoy wrote: “Muhammad, I know you went to the Obama school of racial perceptions, but I never made any such comment to you, because it's not necessary. Please try not to fabricate when commenting on my posts.”

???

Are you saying you didn't mean it when you told me that, and you are now talking full ownership of these racist comments for what they are?

Stilton Jarlsberg - "these racist comments"



Muhammad Rasheed - Stilton Jarlsberg wrote: "Muhammed- I think the fact that you refused to answer my very basic question..."

Patience. I was at work and couldn't devote the time I wanted to this thread.

Muhammad Rasheed - You have my full attention now though.

Stilton Jarlsberg - Muhammed, the timelines of our messages got crossed at that time. In today's economy, anyone who has a job is right to give it top priority (so do I!)

Muhammad Rasheed - Stilton Jarlsberg wrote: “Muhammad - You make a valid point that people in Ferguson may not have voted because they don't think it makes a difference (there's a lot of that all over the country these days). But at the same time, the rioters and looters in the picture above (and too many like it) weren't actually protesting Michael Brown's self-caused death - they were simply rioting and looting.”

The folk caught in the image above are criminal opportunists, such as those that exist among every poor demographic. Why are you associating them with every black person in Ferguson? Would it be fair if I treated every single white, low-life criminal as if they represented all of you? No? They why do your demographic do that to my people all the time? I’m not a criminal, nor are my family, friends, peers, etc. Why don’t you recognize that as a racist stereotyping trait? Please explain.

Gary McCoy - Muhammad, where did Stilton, or anybody else associate the rioters and looters with "your people"? You made my point perfectly. You see color and race in everything. You were the first person to mention race in this thread. As usual.

Stilton Jarlsberg - Muhammad, I most certainly DON'T treat (or think of) every black person as a criminal opportunist or low-life criminal (if I did, I certainly wouldn't have sent money to the black bakery owner whose business was damaged in the rioting).

I realize that my earlier statement, which was a reaction to the picture accompanying the story (fairly, in my opinion), could be construed as an unfair attack on people who simply didn't go to the polls - you're right to point that out, and for that I apologize.

Muhammad Rasheed - Stilton Jarlsberg wrote: “And here's a question: why did the Al Sharptons…”

Sharpton left when he was attacked by his political and ideological enemies when he showed up (from both races, and of course he wouldn’t be able to rely on that town’s police force for assistance). He has a right to protect himself and look out for his life.

Stilton Jarlsberg wrote: “…and Eric Holders desert the people of Ferguson…”

Holder didn’t desert them. In fact, his DoJ report laid the foundation for the very community change on the leadership level that Ferguson needs. 

Stilton Jarlsberg wrote: “…when the story fell apart…”

lol And how did the story fall apart exactly? Tell me. Do you remember what the DoJ actually uncovered about that town’s relationship between the police and their black community?

Stilton Jarlsberg wrote: “…instead of trying to inspire the people to vote for change? My guess is because neither Sharpton nor Holder actually want such change.”

That doesn’t make sense compared to the known facts involved. Sharpton left because he was physically threatened. He couldn’t help without endangering his life. Holder did a detailed, comprehensive investigation, the findings of which led to the beginnings of a much-needed overhaul of the local government. It was the last piece in the puzzle of the legacy he left while in that office.

Stilton Jarlsberg - Muhammad, Sharpton went back to New York and led a parade in which people chanted "What do we want? Dead cops! When do we want it? Now!" - and a couple of days later, two cops (non-white) were brutally murdered.

Holder deserted the people of Ferguson by pushing a police vs community narrative which was designed to inflame, not heal - and which was less based on race than the ravenous need of the local government to force police into meaningless arrests and ticketing to raise funds.

Moreover, his DOJ report on Darren Wilson showed (reluctantly but unavoidably) that the entire "Hands up! Don't shoot!" story not only fell apart but was a complete lie from the start (one promoted by every one of the folks I mentioned previously).

I don't disagree, though, that Holder's "parting gift" was indeed a fitting piece for his puzzling legacy.

Muhammad Rasheed - Gary McCoy wrote: “Muhammad, where did Stilton, or anybody else associate the rioters and looters with ‘your people?’”

Every post that suggested that the reason the people of Ferguson didn’t vote was because they were too busy stealing and they couldn’t read. From the pool of traditional racist comments whites invented about my people to make fun of them – pretending that all blacks are illiterate thieves for the sake of this long-running gag – these comments are actually low-hanging fruit considering. 

Gary McCoy wrote: “You made my point perfectly.”

If your point is that racism is a fiction, then show me all of your posts in which you made fun of those savage white kids destroying their own towns because their ball teams won/lost with equal enthusiasm and vigor. 

Gary McCoy wrote: “You see color and race in everything.”

Are we not Americans? Color & race ARE in everything. You are from the privileged, elitist side of that aisle, and have the option to ignore it altogether if you so desire. Remember?

Gary McCoy wrote: “You were the first person to mention race in this thread. As usual.”

I was the first person to call it out by name you mean. You were the first person to mention it. You’re the status creator.

Gary McCoy - Muhammad, you've wandered into your familiar territory of the absurd. By the way, have you ever considered becoming a stenographer (Gary McCoy wrote: ... Gary McCoy wrote: ...)? Sorry if that's a racist comment.

Muhammad Rasheed - Stilton Jarlsberg wrote: “Muhammad, Sharpton went back to New York and led a parade in which people chanted ‘What do we want? Dead cops! When do we want it? Now!’ - and a couple of days later, two cops (non-white) were brutally murdered.”

Did Sharpton write, begin, and encourage the chant? Does he magically have control over the individuals in a parade? Then how is this comment relevant as to whether he “deserted Ferguson?” Meanwhile I had no idea he went back home to regroup and actually continued to try and drum up support for the disenfranchised Ferguson community. Where I’m from, that would be the literal opposite of desertion. Really. 

Stilton Jarlsberg wrote: “Holder deserted the people of Ferguson by pushing a police vs community narrative…”

The facts of the investigation revealed a long-time abuse of the black community by the Ferguson government, using that police department as their personal leg breakers and petty debt collectors.

Stilton Jarlsberg wrote: “…which was designed to inflame, not heal…”

Do you think allowing those people to continue abusing that community a healing? Is that why you all instinctually HATE IT whenever the anti-racism activists show up? 

and which was less based on race than the ravenous need of the local government to force police into meaningless arrests and ticketing to raise funds.”

If it wasn’t being done along racial lines, then why weren’t the poor white community also complaining? 

Stilton Jarlsberg wrote: “Moreover, his DOJ report on Darren Wilson showed (reluctantly but unavoidably)”

“Reluctantly” is adorable. He was disappointed their fine tooth combing didn’t come up with anything concrete that could stand up in court (the FPD had been doing that stuff WAAAYYY too long not to know how to hide/destroy the evidence), but he did show that the entire backdrop of the crime was based on racial abuse of that community.

Stilton Jarlsberg wrote: “…that the entire ‘Hands up! Don't shoot!’ story not only fell apart but was a complete lie from the start (one promoted by every one of the folks I mentioned previously).”

No. Of the many witnesses who did say that Brown had his hands up, ONE of them who recanted her statement, and coined a particular phrase, turned out to not be credible, and magically it somehow means that Brown never, ever had his hands up at any point ever? lol You are either being intellectually dishonest here, or willfully ignorant. Pick one. 

Stilton Jarlsberg wrote: “I don't disagree, though, that Holder's ‘parting gift’ was indeed a fitting piece for his puzzling legacy.”

So?

Muhammad Rasheed - Gary McCoy wrote: "Muhammad, you've wandered into your familiar territory of the absurd."

Right. If I don't agree with a racist ideology, support and encourage a traditional stereotype narrative that continuously vilifies my people, it means that I'm the one that’s absurd. Sure.

Stilton Jarlsberg - Quick comments...

Yeah, Sharpton deserted Ferguson because his protests in New York weren't intended to help Ferguson, they were intended to bolster the Sharpton brand. No, he wasn't responsible for what some people chanted - but yes, he WAS responsible for irresponsibly stoking the climate which caused those remarks to be made.

Regarding the Ferguson police ("leg-breakers?" Really?) gathering too many fines, what makes you think white citizens weren't unhappy about it, too?

And sorry (well, not actually) but the "Hands up! Don't shoot!" narrative was never true. The physical evidence contradicts the witness statements (well, except for those witnesses who said they were afraid of reprisals from the black community if they backed the police version of events).

And then you say that Holder and the DOJ found no wrongdoing because "the FPD had been doing that stuff way too long not to know how to hide/destroy the evidence." Wow - you're showing anti-police prejudice and calling Holder incompetent all in the same breath.

And prejudice is a bad thing - don't you think?

Muhammad Rasheed - Stilton Jarlsberg wrote: “Yeah, Sharpton deserted Ferguson because his protests in New York weren't intended to help Ferguson…”

And you know the intentions of another person who literally shares nothing in common with you in anyway how exactly? How could I possibly take this comment seriously, Stilton?

Stilton Jarlsberg wrote: “…they were intended to bolster the Sharpton brand.”

Based on what? The fact that you hate it when anti-racism activists are vocal against racism, so therefore anything they say is suspect? What proofs do you have to support this very subjective, and ideological-based claim?

Stilton Jarlsberg wrote: “No, he wasn't responsible for what some people chanted - but yes, he WAS responsible for irresponsibly stoking the climate which caused those remarks to be made.”

What does this mean? Al Sharpton is from the MLK school of activism where they march in demonstrations to gain support for a cause. To you it means he was “irresponsibly stoking a climate.” So let me get this straight: You irritably dismiss the Department of Justice’s detailed findings that the local government of Ferguson, MO was irresponsibly stoking a hateful climate of abuse against the black community, but you 100% believe that Sharpton’s parade was responsible for the deep, deep anger and fury generated from a savage white cop making international news by slaughtering an unarmed black teen and getting off scott-free?

Interesting.

Stilton Jarlsberg wrote: “Regarding the Ferguson police ("leg-breakers?" Really?)”

Yeah. Really. 

Stilton Jarlsberg wrote: “…gathering too many fines, what makes you think white citizens weren't unhappy about it, too?”

Well, where are they? Every time I hear a white person out of Ferguson saying anything about it, it echoes the “We support you, Darren! Go on and kill another one!” type of comments. Naturally that was the talent pool their cops were recruiting from.

Stilton Jarlsberg wrote: “And sorry (well, not actually) but the ‘Hands up! Don't shoot!’ narrative was never true.”

The specific phrase from that particular witness was untrue, but there were numerous other witnesses who were credible that did say Brown had his hands up. Unfortunately there was no way to prove it, because the forensic evidence was inconclusive, and the slight variances in the statements weren’t enough to trump the word of a cop... which is all they had to go on, hence the DoJ’s disappointment.

Stilton Jarlsberg wrote: “The physical evidence contradicts the witness statements…”

Hardly. The physical evidence was ambiguous enough to prove worthless either way.

Stilton Jarlsberg wrote: “ (well, except for those witnesses who said they were afraid of reprisals from the black community if they backed the police version of events).”

lol 

Stilton Jarlsberg wrote: “And then you say that Holder and the DOJ found no wrongdoing because ‘the FPD had been doing that stuff way too long not to know how to hide/destroy the evidence.’ Wow - you're showing anti-police prejudice and calling Holder incompetent all in the same breath.”

I’m not anti-police, but I am anti-systemized racist police department, and anti-racist police. 

Stilton Jarlsberg wrote: “And prejudice is a bad thing - don't you think?”

So this extremely racist and prejudiced thread caught my attention, and one of the early contributors is going to lecture me on the evils of prejudice? Do you realize it is your group that is actually killing my people on the institutionalized level? Are you somehow implying that simply by complaining about this behavior committed against my people it makes me prejudiced, and even worse than that savage cop killing that teen because he felt like it? Hm?

Stilton Jarlsberg - @Muhammad... Well, I think we've gone about as far in this thread as we can. Your lengthy comments above are simply becoming disconnected from reality.

Yes, I can judge Sharpton's motives by looking at decades of his behavior. It's called "paying attention."

Next, you claim that every time you hear a white person out of Ferguson speak, they're saying "go on and kill another one!" I think I'll just go ahead and call you a liar and racist on that one.

You say the evidence was "inconclusive." Really? Did Brown not have burns indicative of the gunshot that went off in the car during his struggle for the officer's gun? Did he have gunshot wounds in his back and not his front? Again, you're either uninformed or lying.

And finally we get right down to it: your belief - sans evidence - that a "savage" cop killed a teen "because he felt like it."

As a wise man once said, "And you know the intentions of another person who literally shares nothing in common with you in anyway how exactly?"

No wait. It wasn't a wise man. It was just a prejudiced hypocrite.

Muhammad Rasheed - Stilton Jarlsberg wrote: “Muhammad- Well, I think we've gone about as far in this thread as we can. Your lengthy comments above are simply becoming disconnected from reality.”

Is your ideology and way of seeing the world “reality?” For example, out of numerous witnesses who said
Brown DID have his hands up, but because ONE of them turned out to not be a credible witness, you translate that as he NEVER had his hands up. In your world this is a reasonable interpretation. smh

Stilton Jarlsberg wrote: “Yes, I can judge Sharpton's motives by looking at decades of his behavior. It's called ‘paying attention.’”

Well, you certainly paid attention to the racist comments made against him for speaking out against racism. I couldn’t say you actually pay attention to what he has actually done. Nothing in this thread hints of anything like that.

Stilton Jarlsberg wrote: “Next, you claim that every time you hear a white person out of Ferguson speak, they're saying ‘go on and kill another one!’ I think I'll just go ahead and call you a liar and racist on that one.”

Well, there was a certain amount of exaggeration involved in my comment. In all honesty, every time I hear a white person out of the Ferguson area say anything about the case, it is always pro-Darren Wilson. From my way of thinking (fairly in my opinion), that is absolutely a call to kill more unarmed black teens.

Stilton Jarlsberg wrote: “You say the evidence was ‘inconclusive.’ Really?”

Yes.

Stilton Jarlsberg wrote: “Did Brown not have burns indicative of the gunshot that went off in the car during his struggle for the officer's gun? Did he have gunshot wounds in his back and not his front? Again, you're either uninformed or lying.”

According to the DoJ report, the physical evidence regarding whether he had his hands up was inconclusive because of the way the human forearm can twist in various angles whether the arms are up or down. This prevented them from being able to prove it either way based on gunshot patterns, and thus, they couldn’t use it as evidence in court to prove anything. The “struggle for the gun” part happened most likely from the teen trying to keep an aggressive, savage cop who hated black people from shooting him, in contrast to what the cop actually said. In this case, because of the lack of physical evidence, and a pool of strong enough witness testimony, the case had nothing to go on but Wilson’s version of things, and because of the authority granted him by his badge, his word alone was lawful evidence. A pity that such power was granted to a sociopathic savage.

Stilton Jarlsberg wrote: “And finally we get right down to it: your belief - sans evidence - that a ‘savage’ cop killed a teen "because he felt like it."

“Finally…?” lol

The evidence was the culture of racism uncovered and documented by the DoJ report, Stilton.

Stilton Jarlsberg wrote: “As a wise man once said, ‘And you know the intentions of another person who literally shares nothing in common with you in anyway how exactly?’”

See: The documented culture of racism/abuse against the local black community by the government and their police force in Ferguson, MO as uncovered by a detailed and very thorough report by the Federal Department of Justice.

Stilton Jarlsberg wrote: “No wait. It wasn't a wise man. It was just a prejudiced hypocrite.”

At this point, I don’t think you know what that means.

Stilton Jarlsberg - Well, we have a lovely dialogue here for people to look at and draw their own conclusions. We'll have to agree to disagree.

In the meanwhile, I'd like to thank you for giving everyone here the magic phrase to excuse any statement which might have been mistaken for racism by someone over-sensitive: "Well, there was a certain amount of exaggeration involved in my comment."

Stilton Jarlsberg - Well, we have a lovely dialogue here for people to look at and draw their own conclusions. We'll have to agree to disagree.

In the meanwhile, I'd like to thank you for giving everyone here the magic phrase to excuse any statement which might have been mistaken for racism: "Well, there was a certain amount of exaggeration involved in my comment."

Muhammad Rasheed - Naturally I'm not surprised that you all were on the look out for precisely such a tool to use to hide your racism behind. lol

Muhammad Rasheed - Me: “…it echoes the 'We support you, Darren! Go on and kill another one!' type of comments."

I really think it's funny that you decided to misdirect from the topic by pretending I was supposed to be making an exact quote. Instead of performing such a slimy trick, it would've been more honorable simply to bow out and play your "agree to disagree" card then.

Perhaps you'll get your integrity levels up at our next encounter. I believe in you. ;)

Stilton Jarlsberg - Geez Muhammad, I thought we were going to end this with a modicum of civility.

So- tell me again how I used the "slimy trick" of "misdirecting from the topic" by mentioning that you accused the white people of Ferguson of encouraging the police to kill blacks? Your words are still there in print, in your own post, if you have the balls to leave them up.

Gary McCoy - Saved for the record by the team of index fingers "left" and "right", performing their two-step called, PrtScn.

Muhammad Rasheed - lol

Muhammad Rasheed - @Stilton... I never stopped being civil. You're the one performing the slimy trick of misdirection, while pretending my comment was supposed to be a direct quote from somewhere, and somehow making a big deal out of the flimsy accusation, as if the strength of your entire argument is hinged upon it. At this point I'm not surprised that neither you, nor Gary, are still behaving that way.

And for the record, the uncritical, and enthusiastic support for Darren Wilson's evil by the white citizens of Ferguson absolutely represents them encouraging their well-documented corrupt police force to continue to kill and abuse that black community. Absolutely. There is no other possible way to reasonably interpret that support. As I pointed out above, it is from their own community that those sociopath cops recruit fresh blood after-all.

David Becker - I read the entirety of the DOJ report. There was no mention on inconclusiveness. There were more than enough eye witnesses and physical evidence to support Officer Wilson's assertion that Michael Brown attracted Wilson through the car window and was shot while rushing the officer. Witnesses were vetted and individually dismissed when their testimony was discovered to be inconsistent with physical evidence and other witness accounts. There were multiple account that verified the official account. The DOJ reported that the events unfolded as described by Officer Wilson.

Muhammad Rasheed - @David... Meanwhile, nothing you just posted was true. Try reading the DoJ report for real, please. Thank you.

David Becker - Okay, Muhammad. If you say so.

Memorandum - DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE REPORT REGARDING THE CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION INTO THE SHOOTING DEATH OF MICHAEL BROWN BY FERGUSON, MISSOURI POLICE OFFICER DARREN WILSON

Stilton Jarlsberg - @Muhammad… "I never stopped being civil." You called me slimy and lacking integrity. Hands up and don't shoot off your mouth if you don't want to be called on it.

Your statement that the uncritical and enthusiastic (your words) support of white citizens of Ferguson for the police to kill blacks is an anti-white racist fantasy on your part. You say there's "no other possible way to reasonably interpret that support." A) That "support" you mention is your assumption, not fact. B) Support of officer Wilson can also be reasonably interpreted as being in favor of a cop whose life was threatened by a large perp who had just committed a crime. Moreover, that "support" largely consisted of letting the investigative system work (including the heavy-handed intervention of the DOJ) and not drawing conclusions until the facts were in.

Your blanket description of "sociopath cops" again shows the extent of your bias.

And finally, as David points out (and I have, too) you clearly don't know the facts in this case. By choice, apparently.

Muhammad Rasheed - I didn't stop being civil when I called you out for your deceptive slimy behavior, Stilton.

The white citizens of Ferguson came together and gave Wilson a large amount of money, love cards, etc. This was on every news program in the country, both from both partisan sources. It certainly wasn't an assumption by me.

That support was based on those citizens who considered Wilson one of them, who chose to believe the stereotype of the "Big Scary Black Guy" who was "like a demon" because that's what they were brainwashed to think about black people since birth, just like he was. That's the only reason they were willing to believe any and everything he said about the case, uncritically.

Why?

Because of the town's long-time racist practices against the poor black community. They'd been villifying them for a while, and it was a normal part of that local culture. To NOT recognize that fact, and say otherwise, pretending their racism is only an assumption on my part, is racist bias.

If the cops would stop performing sociopathic actions in a documented racist/abusive environment, I wouldn't have to say it, right?

I interpret the facts of the case through what was revealed in the racist abusive environment, while you two choose to interpret them through the idea that everything went down 100% the way Wilson said it did, and that racism is a myth invented by black people.

David Becker - Muhammad, I grew up in St. Louis. Ferguson used to be a working class Mecca. Low crime, affordable housing, viable businesses. I spent a lot of time there; particularly at Red's BBQ. The long time citizens are probably tired of the increase in crime, the devaluation of their property, and the recent destruction of once profitable businesses. If I lived there, I would probably give support to Officer Wilson as well; seeing as an uninformed, non-fact driven, emotionally motivated crowd was looking to hang him out to dry for defending himself.

I have no doubt that there are Police Officers who have committed racially motivated crimes; but this has not been proven to be one of them.

Muhammad Rasheed - David Becker wrote: “Muhammad, I grew up in St. Louis.”

That does explain why you are willing to give Wilson the benefit of the doubt at his word, and your general stance on the topic.

David Becker wrote: “Ferguson used to be a working class Mecca. Low crime, affordable housing, viable businesses.”

That describes a lot of American areas before the designer drug craze started, as well as some older economic trends took effect.

David Becker wrote: “I spent a lot of time there; particularly at Red's BBQ. The long time citizens are probably tired of the increase in crime, the devaluation of their property, and the recent destruction of once profitable businesses.”

No doubt. When the economy takes a nose dive, the poor communities grow, and the criminal element among them. This is normal, and even predictable. In Ferguson’s case, it also came with a corrupt local government more than willing to prey upon the poor communities for their own gain.

David Becker wrote: “If I lived there, I would probably give support to Officer Wilson as well…”

This was clear from your first post.

David Becker wrote: “…seeing as an uninformed, non-fact driven, emotionally motivated crowd was looking to hang him out to dry for defending himself.”

The problem was that Wilson deliberately provoked that kid so that he could kill him legally. That’s the kind of person he was. In his defense he relied upon the programmed stereotypes of his peer group to believe everything he said.

David Becker wrote: “I have no doubt that there are Police Officers who have committed racially motivated crimes; but this has not been proven to be one of them.”

I wish that were true. Meanwhile, Darren Wilson was a monster who deliberately provoked that kid so that he would go for the weapon to save his own life, and Wilson gleefully killed him for falling for his trap.

David Becker - Wow, Muhammad, you've got a sick, twisted view of the world. There's no evidence that Officer Wilson was that type of person. If that's how you believe people are motivated, I can only imagine what goes on in your mind.

Muhammad Rasheed - David Becker wrote: “Wow, Muhammad, you've got a sick, twisted view of the world.”

You think so? Even though the DoJ pointed out that there absolutely is a systemized racist abuse inflicted upon the poor black community in Ferguson by that gov and their police department? It reflects a microcosm view over the greater issues my country as a whole deals with along the race issue. When the routine, wanton attack and disenfranchisement of my people leaves me embittered and angered, you say I have a sick, twisted view of the world as your response. Is that your solution to heal me and others that may feel the same?

David Becker wrote: “There's no evidence that Officer Wilson was that type of person.”

Why do you think that? His police department was proven to 100% be like that by the Federal Department of Justice. What evidence can YOU provide that demonstrates he was magically the ONLY white cop in Ferguson who was nice & kind to the poor blacks?

David Becker wrote: “If that's how you believe people are motivated, I can only imagine what goes on in your mind.”

You don’t have to wonder. Just ask me.

Stilton Jarlsberg - Muhammad, I think you need to wipe your chin - you're starting to foam at the mouth. Moreover, you're stating as fact things that are flat out contradicted by Holder's DOJ report.

And by the way, just MAYBE people (black and white) weren't initially judging Michael Brown based on a "Big Scary Black Guy" stereotype, but by the fact that he had just stolen merchandise from a store and knocked down the much-smaller clerk.

Like it or not, Brown was one of those criminal opportunists you CLAIMED not to support earlier in this thread.

Muhammad Rasheed - Stilton Jarlsberg wrote: “Muhammad, I think you need to wipe your chin - you're starting to foam at the mouth.”

I know. When black people get mad at your peoples’ traditional abuse and evil it means that I’m the one that’s crazy. mm hm.

Stilton Jarlsberg wrote: “Moreover, you're stating as fact things that are flat out contradicted by Holder's DOJ report.”

I’ll take ownership of those. My general thesis remains more accurate than your “white people can do no wrong” crazy version.

Stilton Jarlsberg wrote: “And by the way, just MAYBE people (black and white) weren't initially judging Michael Brown based on a "Big Scary Black Guy" stereotype…”

It may be true through some queer twist of faith. That doesn’t line up with any kind of common sense though.

Stilton Jarlsberg wrote: “…but by the fact that he had just stolen merchandise from a store and knocked down the much-smaller clerk.”

Oh? Then how come 1) Wilson’s buddies in the Ferguson Police Department refused to allow the store owner himself to determine if the guy in the surveillance tape was in fact his eighteen yearlong neighborhood patron, and 2) why was the guy in the surveillance tape wearing completely different clothing than Brown during the incident in question? That doesn’t seem fishy at all to you? No, of course not. Because white people NEVER do anything wrong, so everything HAD to have happened exactly the way Wilson said. Of course.

Stilton Jarlsberg wrote: “Like it or not, Brown was one of those criminal opportunists you CLAIMED not to support earlier in this thread.”

Is that right? So even though he had no criminal record, the guy in the tape was wearing a completely different outfit just moments before, and the fact he was black, it somehow means that – in a town with a history of systemized racist abuse against the poor black community – Wilson was the one good cop who came to save the world from the “Big Black Scary Guy” of you all’s classic nightmares?

Stilton Jarlsberg - @Muhammad - way to play the race card buddy. You're spouting nonsense, and now your defense is that I must not be able to deal with a black man because (stereotyping and racism trigger warning) "my people" are evil and abusive. No, the simple truth is that you're just off the rails at this point.

And sweet mother of pearl, where are you getting this bullshit about the guy in the security video wearing different clothing than Michael Brown in the street?! It takes about two seconds to Google the images youself and see that "store robber" Michael Brown and "speed bump" Michael Brown are dressed identically.

But if Brown HAD just committed a crime, it would explain his well-documented aggression towards Officer Wilson AND destroy your hate-filled racist fantasy of a small town where cackling crackers whoop it up while the cops shoot black men for sport.



Muhammad Rasheed - You can have the "different outfit" one. As much as I want to definitively say he has on different footwear, I can't really tell.

Muhammad Rasheed - Stilton Jarlsberg wrote: "@Muhammad - way to play the race card buddy."

There's 52 in the deck, right? How many did I use up in this thread?

Stilton Jarlsberg wrote: "You're spouting nonsense..."

Nonsense is the part where you keep ignoring the DoJ's findings regarding the abuse of the poor blacks in that town.

Stilton Jarlsberg wrote: "...and now your defense is that I must not be able to deal with a black man..."

This is a strawman. At no point was it my defense. I don't even know what it means.

Stilton Jarlsberg wrote: "...because (stereotyping and racism trigger warning) 'my people" are evil and abusive.'"

Do you deny that your people have been evil and abusive to non-whites? Answer honestly, please.

Stilton Jarlsberg wrote: "No, the simple truth is that you're just off the rails at this point."

How?

Stilton Jarlsberg - @Muhammad… Oh, I can "have" the different outfit one. Thanks for "giving" it to me, since you were spouting horsesh*t that you could easily have checked - and never bothered to.

And yeah, I'd say you're playing the race card when you say that when a BLACK MAN (ooOOooh!) gets angry I must be blinded by "my peoples" traditional abuse and evil in order to call nonsense by its name.

Oh, by the way. I DO deny that "my people" have been evil and abusive to non-whites. My people are the people I'm descended from and the people I choose to associate with. It's more likely that Barack Obama carries the bloodline of slave owners and slave traders than I do.

I do NOT deny that there has been despicable racism against people of color in the past, or to a degree today. I'm old enough to have seen it, old enough to have seen the progress since the 60's, and (most sadly) old enough to see that progress eroding NOT out of racism but out of the social policies of the Left.

Take another look at that picture of the "criminal opportunists" at the top of the page. That's the legacy of the "soft bigotry of low expectations."

You see me as a racist because I have greater respect and higher expectations for black Americans than you do.

Muhammad Rasheed - Stilton Jarlsberg wrote: “@Muhammad… Oh, I can ‘have’ the different outfit one. Thanks for ‘giving’ it to me, since you were spouting horsesh*t that you could easily have checked - and never bothered to.”

Yes, I got sloppy on a couple of items and embarrassed myself. Fortunately they were minor, with my Ace of Clubs point solidly in place that accurately explains the incident’s backdrop with insight and understanding.

Stilton Jarlsberg wrote: “And yeah, I'd say you're playing the race card…”

It doesn’t mean anything to me when white folk use the term “race card.” Should it? I’m not in your club, and don’t share your ideology in this sphere. Terms like that come across as defensive to me, and let me know I’m on the right track. What do you intend it to mean exactly so I am clear?

Stilton Jarlsberg wrote: “…when you say that when a BLACK MAN (ooOOooh!) gets angry I must be blinded by ‘my peoples’ traditional abuse and evil in order to call nonsense by its name.”

Another strawman. The actual point was that you dismiss black people as crazy when they complain of you all’s traditional societal wrongs committed against them. Is this your way of promoting a healing between the two communities, or encouraging a climate in which a “Turner Diaries” scenario can happen?

Btw the “ooOOooh!” part is adorable, considering the white cop’s policy of giving all white criminals a chance no matter how heinous the crime, contrasted with their use of deadly force on all black suspects no matter how light the crime, absolutely demonstrates fear of black men. How could it not?

Stilton Jarlsberg wrote: “Oh, by the way. I DO deny that ‘my people’ have been evil and abusive to non-whites. My people are the people I'm descended from and the people I choose to associate with. It's more likely that Barack Obama carries the bloodline of slave owners and slave traders than I do.”

I’m not sure what you are hinting at (is this a reference to the implied possible meaning to the “-berg” at the end of your surname?). Please explain.

Stilton Jarlsberg wrote: “I do NOT deny that there has been despicable racism against people of color in the past, or to a degree today.”

Then why have you made it your mission to minimize the pain such items may cause the traditional victims of these practices, who have by no means healed from it, as the folk on the other side of the ideological divide oddly believe simply not bringing the topic up is somehow fixing the problem? Why do you think it is inherently noble to join in making fun of the historically disenfranchised group in America? How do you justify that? You gave a hollow apology for a negative impression you made once you were called out for it, but it is clear from this post here you really felt that way, despite what you said.

Stilton Jarlsberg wrote: “I'm old enough to have seen it, old enough to have seen the progress since the 60's, and (most sadly) old enough to see that progress eroding NOT out of racism but out of the social policies of the Left.”

What makes you think these “social policies of the Left” weren’t racism in action? Please explain.

Stilton Jarlsberg wrote: “Take another look at that picture of the ‘criminal opportunists’ at the top of the page. That's the legacy of the ‘soft bigotry of low expectations.’"

lol This is a racist concept, Stilton. The criminal opportunist exists in every poor community's demographic, yet you sound as if they represent all black people in the classic racist stereotype. You need to actually deliberately ignore the black middle and upper classes in order to do so, or pretend they are somehow not the ‘norm’ among the race. Notice that you very quickly separated your family of white people from the other mainstream group of whites above, yet you want to group ALL blacks in the criminal class. This would fit neatly in the 'hypocrisy' category. Tell me if this is what you believe, please. Do you think blacks are inherently savage criminals by nature, unlike all other races, and deserve to be shot and killed casually?

Stilton Jarlsberg wrote: “You see me as a racist because I have greater respect and higher expectations for black Americans than you do.”

I see you as a racist because you treat my people as if they do not matter. You treat them differently than human, and ignore common sense in favor of a belief of racist stereotypes, that you gleefully join in with others to make fun of. That is 100% the impression that you and the others in this thread project, especially the very consistent thread status creator.

Muhammad Rasheed - Naturally I'll interpret that as some of those questions and observations made you uncomfortable, and now you are abandoning the thread so you don't embarrass yourself in return.

Stilton Jarlsberg -

Muhammad Rasheed - lol Tell me what you think your credibility should look like after trying to place a divide in between your white people and the greater white mainstream, while simultaneously trying to group all blacks into one group.

Muhammad Rasheed - Tell me before you go.

Gerry Harris - @Muhammad Rasheed... Stilton Jarlsberg and Gary McCoypunked your dumb ass this whole thread. Pants up! Don't loot! In memory of Michael Brown.

Stilton Jarlsberg - That's an easy one. I don't lump all white people together and I never (in this thread or anywhere else) lumped all black people together. And anyone, of any race, who cares to read this thread can see that.

Muhammad Rasheed - Nooo... You referenced the above status photo as representational of all blacks being a certain way because of Leftist policies. That's a definite "lumping."

Stilton Jarlsberg - Read the thread again. Slowly. Think about the words. I never said nor implied that. You're hearing voices in your head again.

Muhammad Rasheed - You either genuinely can't see that hypocrisy, or you don't care about your own credibility since you are surrounded by your friends.

Muhammad Rasheed - Stilton Jarlsberg wrote: “Take another look at that picture of the ‘criminal opportunists’ at the top of the page. That's the legacy of the ‘soft bigotry of low expectations.’"

So this group of criminal opportunists represents ALL black people. And you honestly don't see that as stereotyping the entire ethnic group? Really?

Muhammad Rasheed - You obviously have racism saturated down into your very soul, Jarlsberg. Take a bow. You made it.

Muhammad Rasheed - Since you're still here you might as well read the rest of my lengthy post above you claim you skipped. Of course I don't believe you didn't read it, but were afraid to touch on the items mentioned for fear of how you may come across should you slip up. lol You know I'm looking to make a dramatic recovery from my two embarrassing sloppy items, so I am out for blood.   ;)

Stilton Jarlsberg - Again, Muhammad, the voices in your head are lying to you. You're not reading the words on the page, or even your own quotation of my remark. I said that THOSE CRIMINAL OPPORTUNISTS are the legacy of liberal/Leftist policies.

But the voices tell you that the words "ALL black people" must be in there somewhere - perhaps in invisible ink. Because if they aren't, then you've embarrassed yourself yet again.

Muhammad Rasheed - Stilton Jarlsberg wrote: "I said that THOSE CRIMINAL OPPORTUNISTS are the legacy of liberal/Leftist policies."

So you expect me to honestly believe that you think there were no criminal opportunists among the black communities until after the Leftist policies post-Civil Rights Act?

lol Really?

Muhammad Rasheed - I'll give you a chance to retract that.

Muhammad Rasheed - [sets timer]

Muhammad Rasheed - Go.

Stilton Jarlsberg - Okay, there were scads and scads of criminal opportunists in black communities even before the Lefties made more of them.

Stilton Jarlsberg - Stop the watch!

Stilton Jarlsberg - Note: there were, and are, also scads of criminal opportunists in white communities too. But I wanted to make you happy.

Muhammad Rasheed - ^Did I not say all poor communities have the criminal opportunist among them? Do you even speak English?

Muhammad Rasheed - Stilton Jarlsberg wrote: "Muhammad - You make a valid point that people in Ferguson may not have voted because they don't think it makes a difference (there's a lot of that all over the country these days). But at the same time, the rioters and looters in the picture above (and too many like it) weren't actually protesting Michael Brown's self-caused death - they were simply rioting and looting."

"At the same time" is the key. Why are you grouping both people together? When those savage white kids tear up their towns because their ball teams won/lost, do you treat them and the responsible home owners as the same entity, too?

Stilton Jarlsberg - Take a deep breath, Muhammad. Think - THEN write. Look at my words. I specifically said that the rioters and looters in the picture WEREN'T protesting Michael Brown's death - they were just rioting and looting. How is that grouping these miscreants with either the legitimate protesters (which I didn't) or the black community at large (which I didn't)?

Muhammad Rasheed - Stilton Jarlsberg wrote: "Okay, there were scads and scads of criminal opportunists in black communities even before the Lefties made more of them."

The problem is that those policies isolated the poor from the greater black community, as part of the integration effect (among other things). All on their own like that they made easy prey for opportunists of a different sort, connected to the "Industrial Prison Complex." There are several groups making a lot of money off of those black sub-communities of the lower class. It would take a lot to fix that issue.

But for our purposes, my immediate contention is when you treat those communities as if they are representative of all black people, when this is not so. What those Leftist policies did was create an ever increasing gap between the economic classes among blacks.

Muhammad Rasheed - Stilton Jarlsberg wrote: "How is that grouping these miscreants with either the legitimate protesters (which I didn't) or the black community at large (which I didn't)?"

Both the article itself, and the thread posters, which included you, were treating them as the same entity. Your own "But at the same time" is linking them as if the one had relevance to the other.

Stilton Jarlsberg - I agree with your middle paragraph. And it WOULD take a lot to fix that issue and I pray it will happen (hint: the Dems and the Sharptons aren't going to do it).

In your final paragraph, I DON'T treat all black people or communities as homogeneous. Never have, never will.

But I agree with the rest of your statement: those policies helped create an economic flight in which many blacks left their communities behind, and not much in the way of commerce or opportunity came back into those communities to fill the gap. The people left behind were largely, and unfairly, screwed. And those "Great Society" programs were unbelievably destructive to black families.

Stilton Jarlsberg - I've got to hit the hay. Happy to continue the conversation tomorrow if you like.

Muhammad Rasheed - Stilton Jarlsberg wrote: "(hint: the Dems and the Sharptons aren't going to do it)."

President Obama is a Democrat, and he believes in growing the middle class as a long-term effort to strengthen America. The number one way to do so is to throw his office's weight behind education, which he has. Education is how the poor will be free of their heart breaking shackles, which will require a completely different mindset to recognize the value of it, and perform the work and sacrifice to achieve it. It's not a matter of "Democrat" that's the barrier, but whether a particular leader has the vision to create opportunity that the country needs to prosper.

"The Sharptons" are needed in their specialized function whenever there continues to be race-based attacks upon the poor and disenfranchised. It's a band-aid solution what he and his fellow activists provide, helping one family at a time. They don't have the power and resource to fix the greater problem alone. I don't think it is their job.

Muhammad Rasheed - Stilton Jarlsberg wrote: "I've got to hit the hay. Happy to continue the conversation tomorrow if you like."

I'm not going anywhere, Stilton (unless that meatball Gary decides to destroy the thread).

Race and class are linked in our American culture. Its part of our heritage, and it is a clear weak area; the big red storm spot on Jupiter's surface. Intellectually, in the abstract, I believe you do know that not all blacks are the same, but you don't BEHAVE as if you know this. When you see me, you automatically think, "Oh no! What's HE doing here??? My property values will plummet!" as if there are no wealthy, economically strong black people. Is it easier to believe the racist stereotypes about me, or just more fun? You always reinforce the negative items that support your belief in the stereotypes, and as the mainstream dominant group, all of our media and popular culture caters to your belief system as treats this stuff as “normal.” That’s why you treat me like I’m crazy when I protest this stuff, and you get mad when I am not inclined to treat your opinions as if they are universal truths I must automatically accept because it was you who said them. This is a trait of your white privilege, birthed from you being of the dominant class of the mainstream group, with its self-reinforced inbred ideologies and worldview.  You know you would hate it if the whole world treated the most uncouth, low-life redneck as if he represented all of you, yet you don’t have a problem doing that to me.  And you treat me like I’m crazy when I protest this racist behavior, and call it out for what it is.

As the DoJ report carefully explains, the police officer has quite a bit of wiggle room in how he has the authority to judge situations as whether he needs to use deadly force or not. He does have the authority to shoot you to death if you run away from him, or threaten him in anyway that may possibly be considered putting his own life in danger. It should be notable that when exercising that judgment, he opts to very gently capture the white school shooter or serial killer, but unhesitantly shoots the black guy who was stopped for a broken tail light who bolts. What are the chances that he bolted because he had a bunch of dead kids buried in his basement that he had raped and tortured? Pretty low since blacks have a low percentage of arrests for such crimes. More than likely he bolted because he has a bunch of warrants and tickets over small stupid stuff and he knows he’ll have to sit in jail and pay some money to be free from it. Possibly lose his job. Stuff like that. Nothing worth shooting him to death over certainly. White cops don’t think that way when it comes to using that life/death judgment over black people though, do they? Using my wanted posters as target practice. Punching my women in the face as hard as they can when they are already subdued over a minor infraction. They have a casual disregard for my life.

And when I express anger for that very attitude that’s reflected daily on my newsfeed, you treat me like I’m crazy.

This does not breed trust. It does not breed a healing environment. In fact, your preferred stance is to not talk about it, or have any kind of productive dialog to brainstorm any actual solution to this problem; you don’t think there is a problem (yet you LOVE making fun of me based on the stereotype jokes birthed from the poor treatment endured by my folk from yours). You think I need to just get over it. Right?  I asked you why would these “Leftist policies” you readily admit caused devastating destruction among the black community not be considered racist, but you failed to respond.

Stilton Jarlsberg - @Muhammad... Good morning. Sleep well? So did I. Let me just punch my card in the timeclock (the Koch brothers insist on good record keeping) and we can get started.

(ka-chunk)

Your lengthy comment above mixes entirely valid points with entirely invalid projections and fantasies about who I am, how I behave, what I believe, and what I've said. I'm speaking to you as an individual, but you keep speaking to me as a white stereotype. As you yourself say, that doesn't breed trust or a healing environment.

I, too, believe that education is the most important way to help black Americans advance. But inner city black kids by and large don't have access to decent schools. Democrats - including Obama - fight "school choice" tooth and nail because they put the "right" of teacher's union members to coast through a job above the right of black kids to get an adequate education. And as a bonus for the Dems, those uneducated kids end up with almost no options in life other than being stuck on government programs - and eternally voting for the party which says they'll keep the money flowing. My personal belief is that this is deliberate.

Related to this, you say I didn't respond to your suggestion that the policies of the left are, by definition, racism. In all the flurry of words, I probably didn't respond - but yes, it is. Absolutely. The programs which were well-intended to do good have done huge damage and it is the harmful racism of low expectations (and vote harvesting) that keep them going. And I think that's shameful. I see entire generations being lost and am enraged.

You also said that Obama is trying to build the middle class. Sorry, but that's just not true. He talks a good game, but his policies have enriched only the upper class and stock market. By design - since those are the fat cats that grease the political wheels with their donations.

Shifting to the topic of cops, yes they have latitude in how they handle confrontations. Sometimes it might appear that they handle things differently based on the race of the suspect, and sometimes it is surely true. That being said, if there was even an iota of evidence that Officer Wilson had done that, the DOJ would have slapped him with a civil rights suit so fast there would have been a sonic boom.

In contrast, we have the recent case of a white cop who shot a black suspect who appeared to be fleeing. The facts are still coming in on that one, but virtually all the reports I've seen - and opinions I've heard from individuals - is that if the incident is as bad as it looks that cop needs to go on trial for manslaughter if not outright murder. And again, we still don't know for a fact that race was a factor in the officer's actions. He might have been the kind of guy to shoot ANYone in the back if he was pissed or scared.

There are good cops and bad cops. There are incidents which appear racially motivated and aren't, and incidents which appear racially motivated and are. My personal inclination is to give the benefit of the doubt to a cop in any situation - but only to the degree that the cop's story is then backed up by evidence and the legal system. No one gets a free pass from me because they have a badge.

One last point- you said, of me: "When you see me, you automatically think, "Oh no! What's HE doing here??? My property values will plummet!" as if there are no wealthy, economically strong black people." Again, you're projecting something that simply isn't true. I don't think like that. I live on a very small suburban street with multiple black families, white families, and Asian families (probably Hispanic families too - I don't really do a racial census of my neighbors). And we're all getting along fine, thanks, and property values only rise because pretty much every neighborhood in my city is similarly diverse.

I mention this because I haven't treated you (or thought of you) like a stereotype even once in this conversation. You haven't done the same for me - but hopefully that can change now that we're having an actual conversation?

Muhammad Rasheed - Stilton Jarlsberg wrote: “Your lengthy comment above mixes entirely valid points with entirely invalid projections and fantasies about who I am, how I behave, what I believe, and what I've said. I'm speaking to you as an individual, but you keep speaking to me as a white stereotype. As you yourself say, that doesn't breed trust or a healing environment.”

You’re not speaking to me as an individual since you don’t know me at all. We are comparing opposing ideologies, and socio-political doctrine in this discussion. This is a philosophical argument composed of generalities based on behaviors that are typically racial in nature. For those individual items I’ve mentioned that do not specifically apply to you (are you the cop that shot Mike Brown?) you may safely ignore, but for the purposes of this informal debate, you do represent the entire American white race. And that includes your special group as well.

Nothing anyone the people posted in this thread would make me come to you all for trust or healing. I was furious with you all before I typed my first word. I hold no illusions as to who you are.

There’s a lot of partisan speak in this post of yours that adds zero value to the discussion. I voted for Obama because I believe in his vision for the nation, but I am not a Democrat. I’ve leaned libertarian for many years, and had a low tolerance for the demo-repub back and forth in general, but nothing made me lose patience for it so completely than watching the GOP’s game playing over the last two terms. Partisan rhetoric is complete nonsense, and has no place in any kind of serious discussion. Moving forward I plan to impatiently skip over those items as I address the rest of this post.

Stilton Jarlsberg - @Muhammad... You're setting new rules for our conversation that render it meaningless. Suddenly you and I aren't individuals, we're just races. And accompanying that is your idea (which I find personally repellant, but hey) that all members of a racial group are the same. Stilton is no different from a Klan member, and Muhammad is no different than an opportunistic criminal - am I getting that right? Is that how you want to be seen, just for the satisfaction of seeing me in an untrue light?

I appreciate your honesty that you were furious with white people before you typed your first word. I disagree that you hold no illusions as to who I am, or who white people are in general. Fury will cloud the vision like that.

If you want to actually have a mano-a-mano dialogue as individuals (how the hell else am I supposed to get to know you?) we can do that as two people. If that's not what you want - how do you think racial divides will ever be closed?

David Becker - You know, I just got back from the hardware store. I had to get all of my yard tools sharpened. If I had known that there would be so much axe grinding going on in here, I wouldn't have gone.

Muhammad Rasheed - @Stilton... I'm not setting any "rules." I'm just telling you how I plan to proceed. You may continue to type however, and whatever you wish; what does that have to do with me? "Rules?" I do find the idea laughable that you would think we are talking to each other as individuals in a debate of clashing ideologies. You're not in my FB Friend List. I'm not interested in your opinions as an individual. A philosophical discussion by its nature deals in generalities, and it will be fine right there. All individual members of the racial groups aren't the same. Large numbers of members within those groups subscribe to particular broad ideologies, and dissecting those ideologies is the key to understanding.

I didn't say I was "furious with white people." That's yet another strawman (I'm going to assume you walk around with a bag full of them). I was furious because of the comments in this thread from before I even started responding.

I don't want to get to know you. You have typed nothing in this thread that would make me want to. Just the opposite in fact. A generalized philosophical discussion is enough.

The racial divide will not be closed from us having a one-on-one discussion as individuals. Traditionally such relationships will only make a racist say, "Oh, he's different from those others," or something similar. The way racists feel about Ben Carson, Clarence Thomas, etc. Such a concept is worthless in healing racial issues. The key is to dissect the ideologies that people follow, breaking them down to the source, so we'll know how to address them in policy.

Gary McCoy - Muhammad, allow me to save you some typing-time. Simply cut and paste the following in your next response. You can thank me later...

Gary McCoy wrote: Some people see the glass as half-empty. Some see it as half-full. Muhammad Rasheed sees it and says, "What a racist vessel of the white devil's fluid for oppressing my people!"

Muhammad Rasheed - lol

That is precisely why I'm not interested in the one-on-one Kumbaya talk. It's subjective ideology that proves to be the barrier between understandings. I prefer to pick that apart.

Racists have historically oppressed my people, specifically the poor communities. Gary is under the impression that this is a fiction, or seeks to at least downplay the concept as not really a big deal. I can speculate all day as to why he would feel that way about it, but it is only through dialog that seeks to peel back the layers of that mindset, that understanding can be reached, not by knowing Gary as a person. The problems involved are bigger than him alone, with a mindset that infects a lot of other people, and colors society as a whole.

Muhammad Rasheed - Stilton Jarlsberg wrote: “I, too, believe that education is the most important way to help black Americans advance.”

It’s the secret to curing society of poverty in general, and uplifting the black American lower class in specific. Education is how the American middle class will grow and become stronger, which will create more opportunities, more jobs, more disposable income, and create a powerful American economy once again.

Stilton Jarlsberg wrote: “But inner city black kids by and large don't have access to decent schools. Democrats - including Obama - fight ‘school choice’ tooth and nail because they put the ‘right’ of teacher's union members to coast through a job above the right of black kids to get an adequate education. And as a bonus for the Dems, those uneducated kids end up with almost no options in life other than being stuck on government programs - and eternally voting for the party which says they'll keep the money flowing. My personal belief is that this is deliberate.”

The Obama Administration put the Common Core initiative in place specifically to help reform the schools in those areas which will help the poor blacks in the long-term. Those states who agree to take part in the program are required to get the skill levels of the children up to a certain standard which will enable them to be ready for college level training by the end of high school. Unlike the previous “No Child Left Behind” program, this one cannot be cheated by having the students learn to pass an exam; they actually have to know the principles involved and be able to do the work. Common Core is about LEARNING. Teaching them how to THINK. The Fed has no desire to micromanage the states, but allows them the freedom to determine the best way to get these students up to the new standards. This is a long-term game Obama is playing, and the fruit of the initiative will be the prosperity of the students, their families, their communities, and America as a whole.

Muhammad Rasheed - Stilton Jarlsberg wrote: “Related to this, you say I didn't respond to your suggestion that the policies of the left are, by definition, racism.”

You very oddly differentiated racist practices from destructive “leftist policies,” and when I asked what kept the leftist policies that you admit had been destructive in the poor black communities from also being racist, you failed to answer.

Stilton Jarlsberg wrote: “In all the flurry of words, I probably didn't respond - but yes, it is. Absolutely. The programs which were well-intended to do good...”

Why do you believe they were well-intended to do good? Because that’s not what it looks like from here. It looks like the post-Civil Rights Act movement was headed in one direction when it ABRUPTLY SHIFTED DIRECTION into a predictably very destructive direction, one that Thomas Sowell insightfully recognized as the exact opposite from what was needed. I want to reveal what actually happened to cause that shift, who were the people directly responsible for it, and why you – even though you admit that it was racist and destructive to the community it was inflicted upon – still somehow consider it to be “well-intended and good.”

Stilton Jarlsberg wrote: “...have done huge damage and it is the harmful racism of low expectations...”

That sounds like one of the tenets and effects of the “multiculturalism” movement.

Stilton Jarlsberg wrote: “(and vote harvesting) that keep them going.”

This is one of the items that leave me with little patience for partisan nonsense speak. “Vote harvesting” is a trait of the career politician who only cares about his job in office, and the perks it provides him personally. He does not care about the long-term effects of the broken policies he will put into place as long as supporting them will keep him in that seat. I know you recognize this, yet you fail to see that Obama doesn’t function that way. All of his pet items were designed to improve the country over the long-term, well after he is out of office, and yet you can’t keep that partisan foolishness out of your mouth. This is a classic trait of the brainwashed. Tell me why I should want to get to know you personally when you demonstrate this behavior that I detest so? You care more about that bs "team rah-rah" game playing than you do about truth.

Muhammad Rasheed - Stilton Jarlsberg wrote: “You also said that Obama is trying to build the middle class. Sorry, but that's just not true. He talks a good game, but his policies have enriched only the upper class and stock market. By design - since those are the fat cats that grease the political wheels with their donations.”

1.) Obama has thrown the full weight of his administration behind education, which is the number one way to grow the middle class over the long-term with permanent results. This includes Common Core, as well as the removal of the banks as middle men in the college loan process, part of the Affordable Care Act (which is one of the reasons why the ‘fat cats’ you mentioned hate Obamacare so much).

2.) Obama has demonstrated a zero tolerance for monopolies/cartels, the traditional enemy of the Free Market. Our capitalistic society is the perfect platform to enable a poor person to learn what they need to learn and develop the skill to innovate, establish a new business, and realize the American Dream. The enemy of that path is when big ‘fat cat’ business form monopolies and stifle the competition, choking off the Free Market. Obama has fought against monopolies, proving himself a champion for the American Dream, and the middle class. He defeated the attempted monopolies that threatened the cell phone Free Market, as well as the recent Internet provider controversy.

Muhammad Rasheed - Stilton Jarlsberg wrote: “That being said, if there was even an iota of evidence that Officer Wilson had done that, the DOJ would have slapped him with a civil rights suit so fast there would have been a sonic boom.”

The evidence was circumstantial, and included the local culture of long-time racist abuse by that police department, and how white men see black men as a inherent bestial threat because of the latter’s ethnic indoctrination regarding the same. Unfortunately that evidence couldn’t trump the authority the officer’s badge provided, enabling him to have the latitude to determine was a “reasonable threat” or not, which he used to hide behind to commit his murder.

Muhammad Rasheed - Stilton Jarlsberg wrote: “In contrast, we have the recent case of a white cop who shot a black suspect who appeared to be fleeing.”

A cop has the authority to shoot a fleeing suspect at his discretion. Would this cop have shot a fleeing white suspect? I’m certain he would not, but instead would have used police resources to capture the man. He has a casual disregard for the lives of black people.

Stilton Jarlsberg wrote: “The facts are still coming in on that one, but virtually all the reports I've seen...”

Such as...?

Stilton Jarlsberg wrote: “...and opinions I've heard from individuals...”

Which mean absolutely nothing to the point where you could’ve saved yourself the typing time.

Stilton Jarlsberg wrote: “...is that if the incident is as bad as it looks that cop needs to go on trial for manslaughter if not outright murder.”

The cop has the authority to choose who he would like to shoot if they flee from him. That authority means that he does not need to be tried for murder. Both a white jury and judge will 100% understand how he felt when he explains why he decided to (“he was like a DEMON!!”) kill that fleeing black man.

Stilton Jarlsberg wrote: “And again, we still don't know for a fact that race was a factor in the officer's actions.”

Sure we do. You’re just generously willing to give one of your own the benefit of the doubt while I am not, particularly when it comes to shooting black people to death because he was stopped for a broken tail light.


Muhammad Rasheed - Stilton Jarlsberg wrote: “There are good cops and bad cops.”

We differ wildly on what is considered “good” and what is not. You apparently think being “good” is sit to the side and look away when great injustices are being committed because you don’t want to lose your job. I think to be “good” is to actively fight injustice.

Stilton Jarlsberg wrote: “There are incidents which appear racially motivated and aren't, and incidents which appear racially motivated and are.”

I would never, ever trust the opinions of the posters in this thread as to which would be which.

Stilton Jarlsberg wrote: “My personal inclination is to give the benefit of the doubt to a cop in any situation - but only to the degree that the cop's story is then backed up by evidence and the legal system. No one gets a free pass from me because they have a badge.”

Remember when you said that Obama talks a good game but doesn’t really mean it? This is what that concept actually looks like.


Muhammad Rasheed - Stilton Jarlsberg wrote: “One last point- you said, of me: ‘When you see me, you automatically think, "Oh no! What's HE doing here??? My property values will plummet!’ as if there are no wealthy, economically strong black people.’ Again, you're projecting something that simply isn't true. I don't think like that.”

I have zero interest in whether you personally think that way or not. That is irrelevant. What matters is that that is how the Euro-ethnic dominated mainstream society behaves, and you benefit from the perks of that POV. You are now, during this discussion, in the position of that part of society’s representative. I am not of the uneducated lower class in the black community, but in this discussion, that’s the side I speak for. If you do not care to be in that role you may pull out your “Agree to disagree! I’m OUT!”card again.

Stilton Jarlsberg wrote: “I mention this because I haven't treated you (or thought of you) like a stereotype even once in this conversation.”

Your comment “There's nothing to steal in a voting booth” was a demonstration of you very comfortably equating the criminal opportunist with the rest of that community, as if you were 100% incapable of seeing the difference between the two groups. This is no less than yet more of your “talking a good game” as you called it. It’s not a good game to me, it’s actually flimsily transparent.

Stilton Jarlsberg wrote: “You haven't done the same for me...”

No. You would have to earn it. Good luck.

Stilton Jarlsberg wrote: “…but hopefully that can change now that we're having an actual conversation?”

We’re having a philosophical discussion, comparing and contrasting competing ideologies. You waste your breath sharing your personal life stuff, and also threaten to damage my vision with the resulting eye rolling.
 


 Stilton Jarlsberg -


Muhammad Rasheed -  awww...

Muhammad Rasheed - You'll be okay, Jarlsberg.  lol


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