Saturday, November 15, 2014

Timeless Lovers Artificially Estranged

Muhammad Rasheed - Faith is the belief that it is out there, even when science has not yet (or will ever) find the proof of it.

Clifton Hatchett - Firm belief in something for which there is no proof. That is the closest definition that I could find chief.

Muhammad Rasheed - Closest definition for what?

Clifton Hatchett - Faith. Stop doing that thing you do.

Muhammad Rasheed - So how is that not the same, just worded differently again?

Muhammad Rasheed - "I don't have the proof, but I do have a firm belief that the thing I don't have proof for is out there to find."

Clifton Hatchett - Agreed. Not logical.

Muhammad Rasheed - "Doesn't mean you will find it, but I do believe it is there."

Clifton Hatchett - So do I, but you gave me hell for it.

Muhammad Rasheed - When the scientist inventor fails in experiment after experiment to discover the secret of technological flight, is it not logical for him to believe that he can still do it?

Muhammad Rasheed - He believes the secret of the airplane is out there, he just can't physically prove it yet. Is that illogical?

Muhammad Rasheed - Obviously his system uses a logic, but the naysayers are using a logical argument model that doesn't fit.

Clifton Hatchett - Yes.

Clifton Hatchett - I'm not in disagreement with your post, just perplexed as to why you dawned the position of contrariety when I made a similar assessment, but as you say ''worded differently''.

Jeremy Travis - That's a bad analogy, Muhammad. If said scientist/inventor fails time and again to build a flying machine, he wouldn't need faith to believe that it's possible, all he'd need is to keep in mind that birds, bats, and bugs can do it, so then it must be doable. Because he has that as proof, he does not need faith.

Muhammad Rasheed - Clifton Hatchett wrote: "So do I, but you gave me hell for it."

I didn't give you a hard time; I challenged you to defend your position in a Gentlemen's Duel. You responded with a shuffling dance. Any hard time was self-inflicted.

Muhammad Rasheed - @Jeremy - The animals aren't flying using technology. He believes it can be done with a combustible engine.

Clifton Hatchett - From your lips to GODS ears...lol

Clifton Hatchett - You know that the combustible engine isn't the point. That's the thing you do.

Jeremy Travis - 1. You're needlessly changing the analogy to fit. 2. It still doesn't fit because that has nothing to do with the ability of a machine to fly.

Clifton Hachett













Jeremy Travis - Further, at some point, one MUST give up in the pursuit of a thing if the pursuit goes on for too long, or if there is sufficient reason to believe that the pursuit will end up fruitless.

Muhammad Rasheed - Jeremy Travis wrote: "1. You're needlessly changing the analogy to fit."

How in the world am I changing the analogy at all? What DO we use to fly with, Jeremy? Bat wings?

Jeremy Travis wrote: "2. It still doesn't fit because that has nothing to do with the ability of a machine to fly."

It fits because his experiments with tech-based flight have failed up to that point, but he has faith that he can eventually make it work if he continues the pursuit.

Muhammad Rasheed - Jeremy Travis wrote: "Further, at some point, one MUST give up in the pursuit of a thing if the pursuit goes on for too long, or if there is sufficient reason to believe that the pursuit will end up fruitless."

Giving up on one's ability to accomplish something doesn't mean you give up on it being able to be accomplished at all. You still have faith that it can be done, even if you lose faith in the extent of your own skill/learning.

Muhammad Rasheed - Clifton Hachett posted: "He's right you know."

How would you know?

Jeremy Travis - You added the bit about a combustible engine as if that makes a difference in either his experiment or in your analogy when in fact it makes no difference in either. Just because his experiments in tech-based flight have failed doesn't mean he needs faith to believe it possible as their is sufficient reason and evidence to believe it possible just from the laws of physics alone.

As for giving up on the doing of something versus giving up on the possibility, those are two different things. At some point, after trying for so many times, there may come a point where one realizes that what one was attempting to accomplish is, in fact, not possible, and THAT is when one should give up. If every day I took a dolphin up on a helicopter and dropped it in the hopes of getting it to fly by flapping its flippers, sooner or later, I should come to the conclusion that, no matter how much faith I have in it, it is not possible.

Faith exists because there is no proof otherwise, but one's attachment to faith should not trump proof when it arises.

Jeremy Travis - Also, this idea that 'faith, by definition, is a belief that the truth is out there to find' is both not true AND poorly worded.

It's not true because there is not dictionary that defines 'faith' in such a way. To suggest otherwise is to attempt to make the word mean what you want it to mean so that it fits into your narrative. It's poorly worded because the truth is ALWAYS out there to be found, and because faith says that 'I think this may be the truth, despite there being insufficient evidence or reason to prove it', which is something completely different from 'I think the truth is out there for me to find'.

Muhammad Rasheed - Jeremy Travis wrote: "You added the bit about a combustible engine as if that makes a difference in either his experiment or in your analogy when in fact it makes no difference in either."

Considering I began the analogy specifically with the airplane reference, it actually makes a difference to both. His experiment is based on logic. Your throwing a dolphin out of a helicopter is not.

Jeremy Travis wrote: "Just because his experiments in tech-based flight have failed doesn't mean he needs faith to believe it possible as their is sufficient reason and evidence to believe it possible just from the laws of physics alone."

He has faith that the laws of physics will enable his experiments to become successful.

Jeremy Travis wrote: "As for giving up on the doing of something versus giving up on the possibility, those are two different things."

Of course.

Jeremy Travis wrote: "At some point, after trying for so many times, there may come a point where one realizes that what one was attempting to accomplish is, in fact, not possible, and THAT is when one should give up."

I'm sure there are many would-be manned-flight inventors before the Wright Bros. who came to that very conclusion. They became "flight atheists" based on just such an interpretation from their own narrow-minded views.  Meanwhile the Wright Bros. continued to believe even in the face of continued setbacks, and were eventually rewarded for that faith and patient perseverance.  In this is a sign for those who believe.

Jeremy Travis wrote: "If every day I took a dolphin up on a helicopter and dropped it in the hopes of getting it to fly by flapping its flippers, sooner or later, I should come to the conclusion that, no matter how much faith I have in it, it is not possible."

Since you came to the conclusion to try this illogical experiment in the first place, from what would I conclude that you WOULD eventually come to that epiphany? Obviously you'd be an idiot.

Jeremy Travis wrote: "Faith exists because there is no proof otherwise, but one's attachment to faith should not trump proof when it arises."

Agreed.

Muhammad Rasheed - Jeremy Travis wrote: "It's not true because there is not dictionary that defines 'faith' in such a way."

That's poorly worded.

Muhammad Rasheed - So paraphrasing it differently from the literal dictionary definition is evil or something and completely negates my point?

Do you have ebola or something?

Jeremy Travis - You didn't 'paraphrase it different from the literal dictionary definition', you made a new definition for it so that you can use the word the way you want to and not the way it's meant to be used.

Muhammad Rasheed - Jeremy Travis wrote: "It's poorly worded because the truth is ALWAYS out there to be found..."

The truth is always out there, and I have faith that it is out there whether humans find it or not.

Jeremy Travis wrote: "...and because faith says that 'I think this may be the truth, despite there being insufficient evidence or reason to prove it'"

Exactly like the failed airplane inventor analogy.

Jeremy Travis wrote: "...which is something completely different from 'I think the truth is out there for me to find'."

No, it is not.

Jeremy Travis - Muhammad Rasheed wrote: "Jeremy Travis wrote: "It's not true because there is not dictionary that defines 'faith' in such a way."

That's poorly worded."

It's only poorly worded because I typed 'not' when I meant 'no'. And that statement still stands because you said that 'faith, BY DEFINITION...' and then you listed something incongruous with the definition.

Muhammad Rasheed - Jeremy Travis wrote: "You didn't 'paraphrase it different from the literal dictionary definition', you made a new definition for it so that you can use the word the way you want to and not the way it's meant to be used."

Just because you are determined to confine the definition of 'faith' to mentions of God and only mentions of God, doesn't mean the definition used is wrong.

Muhammad Rasheed - Jeremy Travis wrote: "It's only poorly worded because I typed 'not' when I meant 'no'. And that statement still stands because you said that 'faith, BY DEFINITION...' and then you listed something incongruous with the definition."

lol Mine is only 'poorly worded' because you disagree with it.

Jeremy Travis - 1. That's not how I confine it, because... 2. I do not confine it, because... 3. It is confined by how it is defined and it is defined in a different way then how you use it.

Further, let the record show that it was you who mentioned God, not me.

Jeremy Travis - Since you brought up God in all of this, I will say that I have noticed that believers are, for some weird reason, prone to redefining words on the fly so that those words will fit their beliefs and their narratives. I mean, I can get the literal, verbatim definitions of a word from ten different dictionaries, and they will all agree with each other, but not with the believer, and the believer will STILL hold fast to their own definition.

It's really weird.

Muhammad Rasheed - Jeremy Travis wrote: "1. That's not how I confine it, because..."

You are confining it to a narrow definition that fits the way you prefer to argue against it.

Jeremy Travis wrote: "2. I do not confine it, because..."

By saying you reject the definition I'm using in preference to one you prefer you absolutely are confining it.

Jeremy Travis wrote: "3. It is confined by how it is defined and it is defined in a different way then how you use it."

By whom? In the 8 different definitions that describe it in dictionary.com, six of them involve belief in something that the believer believes can be potentially found by someone if pursued.

Jeremy Travis wrote: "Further, let the record show that it was you who mentioned God, not me."

lol Is this our first conversation, you? Have I never witnessed you argue against faith before?

Muhammad Rasheed - Jeremy Travis wrote: "Since you brought up God in all of this, I will say that I have noticed that believers are, for some weird reason, prone to redefining words on the fly so that those words will fit their beliefs and their narratives. I mean, I can get the literal, verbatim definitions of a word from ten different dictionaries, and they will all agree with each other, but not with the believer, and the believer will STILL hold fast to their own definition. It's really weird."

In the context of the status meme, using God/spirit/unseen are the "truth" mentioned. So compared to the dictionary.com definitions, how is mine a redefining?

1. "confidence or trust in a person or thing" - My faith gives me confidence and trust in the truth of God's reality that is out there to be found by anyone that pursues it.

2. "belief that is not based on proof" - My faith in the truth of God is out there to be found by others willing to pursue him if they are also willing to have faith without scientific proofs.

3. "belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion" - My faith in the truth of God and in his teachings of religion is out there for anyone to pursue.

4. "a system of religious belief" - My faith in Al-Islam is out there to be found by others willing to pursue it.

Jeremy Travis - Oh, OK.

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